It takes a real trust and a conviction to walk into a meeting and rather than just jumping into high gear, giving it a moment of silence or waiting for the other to speak, it takes a certain trust that it actually is more productive. Welcome to Changing Conversations. This is a podcast where we bring you insight on how you can harness the power of conversation to make change happen. And we hope that through the time that we spend together here, you can leave with an idea or a thought that you can use in your next conversation. Today, we have Eli Buren with us. My name's Katrina, and this is Stig. And we'll be talking about choosing the way that you show up in conversation. And rather than do a long introduction, I know, Steve, you know Eli or you've at least had encounters before. So what do we need to know about Eli in the context of this conversation? For me, Eli is embodiment, and that is inspiring me to dare to, you know, be in my body when I'm in life. So that's what you have been inspiring me on for more than 20 years. And I hope more people will have that gift during these 25 minutes. So welcome, Eli. Thank you for that warm welcome. I'm that generous. Well, thank you. I think it should be said that we've actually done something special before we have started this podcast, which was, we had a tea ceremony. And I think it bears mentioning because in terms of choosing the way that you show up in conversation, I think this is kind of an interesting example of, you know, how you might contextualize the beginning of a conversation. So what does it mean to be present in conversation? What do you say? On the most fundamental level of that is, is that somebody is home in the conversation, in their experience of their breath, their body, their awareness. So when we're present, so when we're present, we're with the person in front of us, with the situation, we're truly in the room, rather than distracted and elsewhere, flying in the past and the future. During the tea ceremony, you actually mentioned this Japanese term, and I think it adds to this description you just gave to us. Would you mind saying it again? What was it? Ichi? Ichigo Ichii. And I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing it correct either, but it's something like that. Yeah. So what does that mean? So I've been told that ichigo is meaning an interval of time, the beginning of a conversation to the end of a conversation, the beginning of this podcast to the end, an interval that will never be repeated again in the exact same way. And then ichi is an assembly of people or a gathering that has its uniqueness that the three of us, I hope will gather again in the future, but it will never be the same as it is right now. So it's pointing our attention towards striving to be as present as we possibly can in each moment, because they're fleeting and it won't be repeated. So there's an element of both in the tea ceremony, but also in what you're just saying. There's something about actually showing up and honoring the fact that we are, in whatever conversation we might be in, we are creating something that's unique. And I can't help mentioning that, because the context we are very often in is in meetings, right? Right. In organizations. And my own experience is that very often there's very little honoring of that and people show up and we're not really there. So I'd like to hear you maybe give some advice as to how can I, how can I, how can I be there more? What does that mean? Because I'm there, right? Physically. Physically I'm there, I would claim, but then again. Right. Yes. Often I'll say, is everybody here? And often they're not. The body is there. And so I like that question. And in all honesty, that's something that I continue to explore and practice myself. I don't think that's a, we don't get to an end where we're here all the time. It's a continual process as we age, as things change to continue to stay present as much as possible. And life circumstances presents us with opportunities that make that difficult. And there's that play between our life circumstance and our desire to fully be here. And so to answer your question, what I would suggest is to, is that it takes a personal practice at the very base level. So let's start there because we are all busy, whether it's a meeting, whether it's a family and, you know, the children need attention, there's always something calling for our attention. So in those moments, often we don't have the same level of presence we had here in this tea ceremony. However, if we've been doing that kind of a practice, at least for 10, 20 minutes, an hour, a day, or a few times a week, we start to build a reservoir or a muscle that gives us the capacity to stay present, even when it's a moment. And even when it's chaotic, even when it's chaotic, even when there's a deadline, somewhere to go, something that needs to happen now. We may speed up. I might start speaking faster, moving faster, but there's an underlying note within me that knows what depth and stillness and relaxation is. And I don't sacrifice that unless I'm doing it consciously, which I do sometimes. Hmm. And, and, and why do you think it is that so few of us in these encounters, in these conversations have the capacity or the, I would even say courage to, to be there because there's a certain level of, you have to bring a certain level of vulnerability into this. I mean, I mean, and sometimes when you, when you do that, you also, you also, at least I also sense a part of me that doesn't want that, that, that, that doesn't really want that presence. It's, it's easier to be shallow. It's easier to be high paced. It's easier not to check in for real. And there's a part of me that want to jump all that tea ceremonies, you know, spiritual BS and just get to it. Right. And the problem is that there's this, we can only go so far, I guess. How, can I just ask, how does that look for you when you are in, let's say a meeting? Yeah. Um, from, from meeting to meeting, I know you have a lot in a day. For me, it's, it's, you go into a meeting and, and you literally feel that we are not really here. And therefore the sensation I have is we can only go so far in this conversation because we're not really here. So then you don't commit even more because you're like, well, you're not really here. So I won't really be here. And then I, for me, what is challenging is say that I might have a language for that or a consciousness around this. But if I'm meeting people that don't, it can be a little bit invasive to say, Hey guys, let's do a check-in. Let's do a tea, a 10 minute tea ceremony before we get going. That's kind of awkward. You don't do that. Impossible. Impossible. So you need some kind of a practice to apply in those situations where you bring some level of consciousness or embodiment in. How do I do that? Well, look, it's, you can't impose a lot of things and you wouldn't want to because everyone is interested in what they are in. Of course, if it's a team member and there's a, around how well they produce something and their level of communication and contact, then it's necessary. But what we can do is to create space in our own experience that isn't spoken about. But when someone turns to talk to you, they, they have the sensation of this person's really here. They're listening. Yes. There's room for a dialogue back and forth rather than just a head full of something they want to say to you or a busyness about something that needs to happen. So it's what you say is really honest. And I agree with you that it's often, we don't want to slow down. And here's the paradox of it. And here's the paradox of it is I work with a lot of clients and high performing people around the world that have achieved a certain level of success that is, they don't need to achieve any more other than for their own sense of, of, of desire. And they're, so they've achieved the currency, the things that they would like, the projects. And yet, if they don't develop this thing we're talking about, their relationships, their relationships, their relationships, their well-being with their own body. And ultimately, the, the, as businesses evolve, as we are talking about here, their, their team will suffer that too. If they're not present and they're not allowing some space in their life to actually take an exhale once you've completed a project, so you've attained the goal. We all love that. That's, that sensation is fantastic. Like, yes, let's go. But the workplace, and I would say the Western world in general is built under a model that is, is not sustainable. It's, it's start, finish, start again, start, finish, start again. It's so it's, there's no time to rest. There's no time to exhale. And to actually then to, to, to really examine how you, well you did and whatever you were reaching for. Was there, is there any adjustments to be made? Do I need to take a few hours off or a few days off before I start the next project? It's no start, start, finish, start, finish. And one of the wisdoms of the cycles, if I may, I'll just say this one last piece here is there's something called the creation cycle. And it's a, it's, it's in traditional Chinese medicine. It's, it has a lot of wisdom. And basically what it's saying is that all things move in a cycle. The seasons first and foremost in Denmark here, you, you see that very well. The springtime, the seed is ready and that's wood. And it's, it's, it wants to grow. It's the beginning of a project. It's the vision. We're talking about it. Like we're excited. Nothing's happened yet. And then the wood goes into fire, which is summertime. It's expression. It's going towards the thing that you're talking about. It's going full power. It's courageous. It's risk. You're risking something. You don't know what's going to happen. It's exciting. And that's where we're stuck. We're stuck in fire, a healthy culture and a mature person. After they've reached fully, what happens, the fruit starts to ripen. We reach towards fall, which is, excuse me, we reach towards earth, which is a grounding into personal wellbeing, community, into building trusting relationships. And there's a relaxation. Then it goes even further into autumn, which is a letting go. That's when the leaves fall off. And that's where you finished a project and you just sit back down. And you're turning your chair or you take a day off and you go, that was, you know, that was good. Or, oh, I could have error corrected in this way. So it's being very honest and becoming accountable with how you are living. And then the final part is winter, which is water. And that's just letting go. It's surrender. And our cultures want nothing to do with winter. There's very little respect and honor for it. But if you think about it, you need to let go fully. And then spring comes again and it's ready to burst with a new idea. And so this could take one day. It could take one week. It could take a month. So that cycle happens throughout a time. And it's good for us to realize that we honor each part of the cycle. I think when it comes to, because we're thinking like, how do you make change happen? How might transformation take place? And when I was coming into this conversation thinking about, okay, let's talk about presence. And, you know, I thought we might talk about, okay, which ways to settle ourselves in the way that we're sitting together, talking together. But what's interesting is you're speaking more to the time outside of when we're meeting, outside of the time that we're in conversation. And giving space to that, I guess, so that then you can come bringing space into my being in this conversation as well. So that's interesting, I think. Yeah, there's that. Well, they're both happening simultaneously. There is the that this conversation right here. There's this is part of a conversation of a larger of your family of meeting. Me traveling here of our larger lives. And so they're both happening. And how I would like to respond to that is it's it. I look at it often like people speak about music and notes and silence. And as you become more masterful at something, you're not just hitting the notes, you're listening to the silence, you listen to Philip Glass, or some of these great composers, they talk a lot about the silence between the notes. Similarly, with conversation. What is the silence between words and what is the what is the what is the silent conversations that's happening between us when no one's speaking? The silent conversation with our own breath, with the air against our skin with the the way that we're inhabiting the room that we're in. And that's the whole kind of the under earthiness of a conversation that we don't have time to really think about much. But it's there. But it's there. And it is what builds the foundation for a healthy, strong, exciting, dynamic conversation as someone that knows that side, and they haven't avoided it their whole life. But they've actually spent at least a little bit of time there. And if you if you if you go into a conversation, and you're actually able to, you know, manifest that level of presence that you're fully there with your body, with your mind, with your intention, with everything you've got, your your sensitivity for the other person also grows, you're simply like multiplying your own sensitivity as to what is going on, really. And that means that you can, you can, you can get granularity in the conversation that you wouldn't have access to. Otherwise, we had David White, he I think he put it in a great way that inspired me, he said, there's a there's a difference between being with, and speaking with and speaking to, like this sense of, like, that we're creating something together, which which is different than just exchanging views. And, and listening to and listening to and listening with, I think he put it this way. And listening with is is acknowledging the fact that if we're really good, we're creating something together, that wasn't here before, and none of us had access to it individually. But we manifested it together. And my own experience is that if I'm in a group of people, and I'm able to manifest that consciousness from the get go, then we are actually able to do things within an hour that was mind blowing. And in other cases, not so much. So there is a kind of a language and vocabulary around. And I think embodiment is very much the key word here. What do you what what's your view on that? It takes a it takes a real trust and a conviction to walk into a meeting and rather than just jumping into high gear, giving it a moment of silence or waiting for the other to speak, it takes a certain trust that it actually is more productive. And so you have to go through it enough times to realize when you do give space, and then it's more thriving, it's a stronger conversation. And yes, it is absolutely about the body. And yes, it is absolutely about the body on one level, there's the there is the mental body. So that's the conversation we're having here. And then there's the physical body. I like to think of the physical body as a kind of antenna. We all have that image of an antenna that transmits and receives information. And the more that our physical body is open, as an antenna, so our breath is open, our eyes, our hands, our jaws, relax, the more that we're able to both take in the information of the people we're talking to, but also, whatever we're our, our gift, our purpose, whatever we're speaking about is transmitted through an open body rather than a contracted body. So that's a profound way of looking at it is walking into a conversation if I'm scrunched and I'm like protecting no invitation, no invitation, there's no room. No. And you're not noticing all the subtle cues of your team that are actually there in front of you. But you're also mentioning something that I think is that touched me, you're talking about this moment of silence in the very beginning. And myself included, I find a lot of people are actually afraid, like really scared. of silence. And I'm scared of silence. And I'm scared of silence. And I'm scared of silence in the sense that I don't know where things go. So it's a way of taking control. And that's what I see very often in conversations, in meetings, that we rush into taking something somewhere really quick because it feels good as long as it moves. Whereas the stopping, the getting on the balcony, the allowing us to say or ask, what is the conversation we should be a little bit more to do that. And I think what is the conversation we should have? Let's take 30 seconds and just reflect upon how do we want to show up? What's the conversation we really are yearning to have? And what would it take for us to do that? I mean, just contacting that is super courageous. I don't have the courage in most cases, but when I do, it most often works. But I think, so there's different ways that you could do this because there's, there's, for example, with the, in your case, the, in many cases, you might have some power in the room, or some of your peers might have more power than, let's say, people who might be my colleagues, they, you know, there's different ways that you could choose to show up. And when you make that pause, for us, so to speak, I guess there's something also to do with the power in the room and what you allow the rest of us to do. I'm just, I'm making a little bit black and white, a little bit hierarchical here, but, and then on the other hand, so you might choose to do that for us. If I'm just sitting here by myself, and maybe I don't have so much power in that one situation. I could, I could think about, okay, what is my body doing? I think that's such an interesting question that you make me think of when you talk about, am I scrunched up like a ball? Are my hands crossed across my body? Am I breathing deeply or very in a constricted way? That would be a way that I could also take power over the way I'm showing up all throughout a conversation. and a, and a, and a meeting. So we're not without power. Um, yeah. And, uh, um, I wanted to ask, what does it mean, uh, the word embodiment taking a step back? Uh, it's a definition that I think people continue to bring in all kinds of ways. And the embodiment has entered the, um, you know, the cultural, in, in, in many different ways. It was not just a physical thing now. So embodiment is coming into companies. It's coming into health and wellbeing. So it's a working definition is that you, a person is conscious. And then that consciousness is brought into the body. So I'm a, I am here, I'm aware, and I reach out and hand you something. I'm aware of my body moving towards you. And it's, I'm giving you a gift of something. So embodiment is, when we are in our physical body and we're aware of the physical body moving through space. I mean, there's, I could go on with lots of different definitions, but I would suggest everyone figure out what it means because we all are embodied. And that's the beautiful thing is the body is the anchor. It's the only thing that we can depend on that is here. Now you can't be somewhere else. So learning to find the contact points that bring you back to your embodiment. The touch of your hands on your legs, the, the, the sensation of air, the sensation of the clothing, the, the simple things that bring us back to we're here. There's gravity. One of my teachers once said, if you forget your body, just jump up in the air, you plop, you come back down again. So gravity is always there, a force upon the body. And that reminds you that your body is here, which reminds you to be fully here and be present in your conversation. And I just want to return to what you're saying for a moment, Steve, that I think it's a real, it's a beautiful vulnerability, what you're expressing, because it's true for, for all of us is there's reasons why we don't slow down or why we don't want to be in the body. And that's a larger conversation, but the, the short of it is it's uncomfortable. And when we actually pause and just sit down, place our hands on our legs and sit there for five minutes for five hours, however long you can afford it. You're going to be forced to have a deeper conversation with yourself. And that's why we resist it because there's a lot of built up history. There's discomfort in the body. We start to sense the tension that we've been walking around with the tightness in our belly, all that feels terrible. So if we keep moving and doing and thinking, we avoid it only to a certain point, it's waiting for you at some point, we have to turn towards it. And generally it is, it's something that's afforded to people that have chosen to, to evolve that. And often it's a people that are in, in, you know, high functioning roles that have seen that they're going to burn out. They've burnt really bright. They're very powerful and they go, okay, what's my next level of growth? How do I do the same work I'm doing with a relaxed body? So I don't burn out. Plus I actually invite people into the conversation. conversation in a way. And so it does trickle down from the top, what you were saying, when people enroll in roles of leadership, they're the ones that are saying, let's pause, or we just finished this project. Let's take a, you know, a day to, before we dive into this next one or an hour or whatever it is that starts to trickle down and people go, oh, that actually, it's not just, just for fun. It actually helps the whole productivity of the team work better. And we're a better working organism. I like that idea about, you know, as a leader, you have to be invitational, right? And otherwise there is no conversation and everything happens through conversation. So that's a given, but you can, you can actually think about when you go into a meeting as a leader, where am I making invitation and where am I not making an invitation? And many of us will acknowledge that physically I might not make an invitation. There's a part of the conversation. There's a part of the conversation. There's a part of me guarding myself in the conversation physically, which also means that anyone I meet will match my guardedness. And therefore we probably won't create any art. We might do something together, but it's not art. Right. And let us create more art. I mean, yes, succeed in the areas we want to and must, but within that, let's be beautiful and artistic and develop a reverence for life because it is precious. And I know that that can sound like it's, you know, woo woo. But as we grow and we get older, some of us, we've, we've lost things we've loved. We've seen things transition. And as we get older, then it's natural that a quality of, of true reverence grows because you don't know how long you're going to be here. So my wish is people find that sooner than later, rather than letting age force them into it. Let's practice that capacity. earlier on. As we round towards the end of this conversation. I think two kind of thoughts that have come together through this, this talk with you. The one is that, you know, when you find it's getting really transactional in, in the everyday of meetings and the conversations we have, and you can feel that it's just firing like, oh, I'm talking and then you're talking and then I'm talking. I think one of the things that I've learned from you is that notice your body and that in itself is a way to invite presence in and to become more present. And then the second thing off the back of that is, is the idea that we need to bring a bit more space in. And we talked about silence. Um, but in terms of making change happen in terms of transforming organizations or teams or whatever it might be, to remind ourselves to remind ourselves to put that cycle, part of the cycle in where we need to take a deep breath, look back and not just rush on with the next thing. I think it's something that at least I've heard many times, but this is a good, a good reminder to remember to, to put space in. And sometimes space is asking a beautiful question. And then, and I think it's super, it's as basic as, an idea about as, as, as the embodiment thing, but, but in, in many meetings that I sit in, uh, there are simply no questions being asked. I mean, there is literally not a single curious, beautiful question in the whole repertoire of what happened in the meeting. So I think a very, very practical thing we could do is invite the silence and the consciousness in by asking beautiful questions that makes us pause and makes us reflect upon, okay, how do we show up and what do we want out of this meeting? So as we close this conversation, we'd like to end with just a round on what is the thing that you will take to your next conversation, Steele will take and I'll take to our next conversation based on this time that we've spent together. I'll take the pause. And I'll take, um, an intentionality. So being even more intentional, even if I do need to make a very short phone call, which is like, Oh, I need to get this information. Just do it with, with more awareness of what's going on in my body. I'll take the presence that we're sharing together here as a, as a gift to remind me to continue to stay here and to breathe deeper. And I just want to say that that the breath I'm reminded in this conversation is, um, one of the single most important ways of deepening our conversation and deepening the relationship with ourselves. it's, it's, it's, it's, it's ultimately the, our most intimate relationship with life is the way we breathe, the texture of it, the quality of it. So thank you for that. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Likewise. Thank you.