Dr. Glossary, Ph.D.: Having that intentional declarative tone to your voice also makes you more credible because it sounds like you believe what you're saying. And if you sound like it, they're more likely to. But if you sound like you're not sure, why should they be? Dr. Glossary, Ph.D.: Welcome to Changing Conversations, the podcast series where we bring you insights on how you can harness the power of your conversations to make change happen. My name's Katrina and I've got Steve with me here. And we are speaking to Dr. Laura Cicola this afternoon about speaking to influence. Laura is a leadership communication and influence expert and has a podcast series and a book about speaking to speaking to influence. So we're super excited to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for the invitation. All right, let's get rolling. So I think, Steve, you had the question that we should push off with about her experience. Yeah, I mean, you've been in this field for quite some years and you've been playing with a lot of leaders around this space. So I'm super curious to kind of, okay, what have you picked up? What are kind of the things that you would share with me and Katrina that would equip us to go into our next conversation in an even better way? Is it the conversation with those leaders or the conversation as a leader? It's more what have you learned? Like what have you picked up? What are the things for me to be more aware of? I think one of the most common places that we tend to get stuck is what I like to refer to as the expert's curse. Which is where we've been in our field, which is where we've been in our field, which is where we've been in our field, you've been in your field for 10, 20, 30 years, in your company for however many years, in your role for however long. And we often tend to forget what's not intuitive, obvious, already known, or even interesting to everybody else. So we may talk over their heads, we may use too many details or not enough. It's very common to forget how to take the perspective of the listener and think in terms of what they do and don't need and want to hear from us. We know, okay, well, this is my space. I want to share this information. I need you to know that. But if we start to think about what to share from the perspective of what they need, it makes for a very different conversation. And that makes sense because I think what we have, when we've been investigating this further, I mean, in many conversations, especially broken conversations, if you can put that label on, there is literally no listening. There are no questions whatsoever. It's advocacy from one part and then the other part. And it's just exchanging like ping pong advocacy. And when you talk, I'm not really listening. I'm preparing for my next point. Yes. And sometimes you can even see it. Yes. And that is really a toxic kind of, you know, way of being in a conversation. So could you maybe open that up a little bit about the listening part? You seem to know a little bit about that. A little bit. It's funny you mentioned that people don't tend to listen to process. They listen to respond. And there's an analogy that I like, which is, did you ever see two children on the playground doing jumpers? And not just with one, but with two ropes. We call it in the US double Dutch jump rope. And so the one rope flaps this way, the other rope flaps that way. And someone's on the outside and they're pacing themselves, waiting for just the right moment to jump in. And I feel like those two ropes are like the other person's lips. We're watching the lips flap, flap, flap, flap. And we're just waiting for when there's a pause and we can jump in. We're not really listening to what's coming out. So a big part of being a better conversationalist, if a conversation is truly a two-way street, is to receive what the other person is saying. And I think most people are not willing to break that stalemate of being the first person to listen because they feel like I can't listen to you until I feel like I've been heard. So they push or they have a verbal arm wrestling competition. Say, well, once you've listened to me and I feel the catharsis, I feel that you finally heard me, I feel understood. Okay, now I can listen. Well, if both people feel that way, it's a stalemate. So we need to decide, you know what, let me acknowledge, be the first person to break that stress. Acknowledge the other person, try to understand what they're saying. And when they then feel like you've heard and understood them, they'll be a lot more likely to be able to take a step back and hear a little bit of different perspective. I can totally recognize that feeling when you're sitting in that meeting, also when there's multiple people in the room and there's just, it's one person's turn after the other. And usually people are talking very fast as well. So you're also, you're just, you know, as if you're at the beginning of a race, standing at the, you know, the start line. Waiting for the gun. When can I get my word in edgeways here? But of course, you know, if we want to make progress in the conversations that we're in, and if we want, in order to make some sort of change happen meaningfully, then, then we're wasting time by doing this, right? So I know that you, you have three C's that might help us in, in getting out of that, that waiting position. And be able to take the room in a different way. So would you be able to fold those out for us? Oh, I'm happy to. Part of what I like to refer to as vocal executive presence is mastering the three C's. And that's the ability to command the room, connect with the audience and close the deal. And to be able to command the room is partly having that presence, that authority. It can be in many different flavors. It's not just strong. It can be empathetic. But it should definitely be present. Showing that you are physically and mentally present to the person who's there. You're not multitasking, but you're also standing strong in your space or sitting even strong. But having that presence that says, I'm here. I know what I want to share with you. I need you to pay attention to this. Without having to demand it, right? There's a difference between having a commanding and commanding respect versus demanding respect. If you have to demand it and ask for it and tell people you want it, you'll never get it. But if there's something in your presence that just commands that respect, commands that attention, that's a much better first step. The second is connecting with the audience. So somehow through what you share and how you share it, how you listen as well, that ability to establish a connection that says, you understand me and I understand you. And the rest of the conversation should flow along those lines. And then closing the deal is the third C. And that just means coming to an agreement, reaching some sort of mutual understanding with regard to what should happen next. That's what I believe you're referring to as progress. So closing the deal doesn't have to be signing on the dotted line and an exchange of money necessarily. It's just saying, all right, we've come to this understanding. Now here's the following. That's interesting. I was thinking with your three C's. One of the things that we've been geeking out on is this idea about invitation. So to which extent are you invitational in, and I was thinking across all the, like the command, the connection, and also the closing. How can you be invitational? For instance, also in the commanding. So how can you, how can you be both and there in the sense that you come with an intention, but you hold it lightly enough for the other people to co-own it or co-create it or nuance it and so forth. And the connection is also an area where you can be super sensitive to, you know, creating that connection through invitation, authentic invitation into a real conversation. That that that's not easy. That that's not easy. Is it? No, it certainly isn't. Especially when there's an, when there's an opposition of some sort, when you have competing priorities or completing pressures, uh, where for me to get what I need, it seems like you can't have what you need or want. So that that's, they can be very difficult conversations to have, but sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, no, no, no. I was just thinking sometimes when I hear people, insightful people talking about how to navigate in a conversation or how to get to yes and how to talk to influential people or something like that. There's a little part of me that is afraid that we're getting speculative and manipulative. So we're, we're, we're, we're trying to orchestrate the conversation and ourself in a certain way to get to what we want. And, uh, there's a little part of me that is that, is that very authentic? Because another part of me says, I have to, I have to be me and I cannot play. I cannot, if the conversation turns into a play for me, then there's something wrong. It's not a real conversation. What do you think about that? Oh, I agree. 100%. And influence manipulation is one variety of influence, but manipulation generally, not always, but typically has a little bit more of a, of a sinister sense to it where I'm trying to get you to do something that I want, even though you don't want it and it's not in your best interest. So I'm not at all advocating for that, but perhaps what I heard, and you can tell me if I'm misinterpreting, this is the concern of, well, you know, I'm coming into this conversation because I need to get some results and perhaps a slightly different framing would help to shift the direction of the conversation, which is that I know I need to get this accomplished, but perhaps part of my mission should also be to understand better what the other person wants and needs and why, and try to figure out more creative solutions so that they don't, it shouldn't be a zero sum game where in order for me to get what I need, I have, you have to give up everything that you need. What other ways can we find to come to a solution that bring us both? So active listening, asking better questions, asking more questions, listening to what the other person and homing in on some keyword that they used, or maybe a little side comment that they just made seemingly offhand, but maybe that wasn't just a commentary. Maybe something under that was really at the core, that they just don't know that they can tell you. So, gee, you know, we mentioned that piece. Can you tell me more about that? You know, where did that come from? You seemed a little agitated by that notion. Can I, can I ask what's going on there? So just asking, following up on the details, listening to not only what the person says, but how they say it. When you hear a change in energy, you hear a shift in the kind of language being used. Tap into that. Ask them for a little bit more. Very few people, if given the invitation to talk more, we'll turn it down. And it's in what they share with two or three more little prompts that you'll probably identify something that you had no idea was really underneath it. And when you can find a way to help them with that, boy, do things open up for you. And that's your active listening, right? Yes. Okay. Certainly a big, a big piece of it. So I'm curious because when you say command, I think, I think it will be interesting to open that up because maybe in a classic or in my classic thinking about it, you know, I need to seem stronger in here. So commanding the room might be like taking up more space or using my voice in a strong way. But I am curious, can commanding also be not that? Can it, you know, what are the things that are going to do? What's the spectrum of commanding the room? You know, maybe not just the strong version. Correct. No, command doesn't have to be a military kind of strength. If you've ever watched a good interviewer like Oprah Winfrey, are you familiar with Oprah's work? She was a great interviewer and she was not a dominant presence in that traditional militant kind of sense, but she was so sincere. And asking every question. And asking every question. Really wanting people's stories. Her motto was whenever anyone is done here, she would often say it to them. I see you, I hear you, and what you say matters. Yes. And that was it. So that's a different command. Absolutely. It was riveting. Yeah. So it's more than anything. It's the intention. It's the energy that you bring. It's the space that you shape. Yes. It's the conversation you intentionally shape. So you don't just tumble into the conversation. You go deliberately into it knowing what's the type of conversation we need to have here in order for us to progress. Sure. And being willing to flex because sometimes you can go in with great plans. I think it was the boxer Muhammad Ali who said, everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face. Yes. So we have those moments where we go in with a great plan and then something happens and it all goes out the window. So how do you flex? How do you shift with whatever that unexpected turn was that you couldn't control, but now your original plan's not going to work. So can you pivot and still listen well? Can you still shift your energy effectively? Maybe you do now need to step up and be a little bit more assertive, a little more dominant, a little bit stronger, or maybe it's about backing off and saying, you know what, let's just take a step back for a second. You know, when I am least able to command a room. You know, when I am least able to command a room I've noticed is, is, you know, when I don't have grounding. So, you know, in the context that sometimes you need to be stronger and sometimes you need to hold back. Usually I would default to the strong version if I feel least comfortable with what we're sitting and doing. So how can I feel like grounding? So how can I sense what is needed or how can I find grounding when I, when I want to affect a room in that way? So let me ask a question back at you first. When you say grounding, what does that feel like? That there's space in my body. So I can feel, yeah, I can feel where I am in the room. I can feel like I can breathe, I guess. Um, and I guess I can, I have a visual of just toppling a little bit because I could be blown over very easily when I'm not grounded, but when I'm grounded, then actually you can throw a lot of things at me and, and I'll be fine kind of fine kind of thing. Sometimes you mentioned something a moment ago that it's about feeling like you can't breathe. And we often forget to breathe. So sometimes the most important step to just not reacting to something, not babbling in search of words, not scrambling, trying to figure out anything to say is to give ourselves the space to just take a deep breath, regroup and choose intentionally how we want to respond. It's when we tend to work off the reflex and everything tenses. We're not breathing. When we don't breathe, our brains don't work as well. And I don't say that facetiously or metaphorically, literally the opportunity just to inhale, exhale and release lets the tension go away and gives us a moment to collect our thoughts. And be more deliberate so we can respond more effectively instead of just that reflex blurt that tends to come out, which is rarely in our best interest. Here's a tip, if I can throw this out. If you're not sure, um, if you're in that space or not, check one thing, check to see if you've glued your tongue to the roof of your mouth. Because when we're tense, especially we swallow, everything tightens up and we don't release. And you'll realize that when your tongue is pressed against the roof of your mouth, that everything else is tight. And if you can just get yourself to release the tongue from the roof of your mouth, your jaw will then release, your throat will open. You'll feel your shoulders relaxed. There'll be this cascading relax, that relaxation going down your body. Which then allows you to breathe more deeply, which then allows you to breathe more deeply, more fully. Your brain clears and you're better able to move forward. But check, release the tongue from the roof of your mouth and then move forward. Nice. I just did it. I did it too. I did it too. I'm so relaxed. I have, I have a question on, um, on, uh, voice. Yes. And, um, and I have, I have a friend who, and we actually had a speaker. Eli, Eli, who, he, he has a very, very profound embodiment of his own voice. So he comes from the gut and his stomach when he speaks and he always does. And my experience with him is that whatever he says, the world wants to listen. Hmm. Hmm. And I've always also noticed that when I, when I, when I speak from up here, like my throat, it doesn't matter whether I have a point. No one wants to listen. Listen to me, listen to me. Yeah. It's like, it's like, it's like I totally lose my power and no one wants to listen. Whereas if I say the same thing and I come from here, it, it doesn't have to be more insightful, but the world will listen. Hmm. So can, can, can you, can you, I don't have a language. I don't know the granularity of this field, but I have a sense that you do. So it is the question. Why does that matter? Is it true? Is it like, what's the, what's the, what's the secret? Is, is this, is this right? Is it a thing? Is it a thing? Is it a thing? Or is it something we should master? There's a lot of things in there. Yes. The, the short. Unpack it. Unpack it. Okay. The 30 second answer of sorts is a couple of things. Number one, that. So part of it is cultural that we tend to associate a deeper voice with strength. Men have deeper voices than women. The more masculine has traditionally been viewed as strong. So a higher kind of squeakier voice is not perceived as something that's very authoritative. It's sweet. It's nice. It may be less intimidating. Perhaps there's a time and a place for it. But for those who are speaking in the upper part of their range, they may not have the gravitas necessary. So, and I'm not saying you should talk down this. We're not down here. We're not trying to fake it. But recognizing things like how to relax your throat and drop the larynx, which is your voice box. So that, and then opening your throat so that you can hear the difference between when I'm talking and I'm tensing my throat a little bit here versus when I'm speaking in a way that allows for the full resonance in all the chambers of the body. It's a fuller, richer kind of sound to it. So part of it is simply learning the mechanics, just like learning to improve your golf swing. A two millimeter shift in that grip can make a big difference. What's the two millimeters and how you use the voice. But also recognizing things like when we are nervous or anxious or tense about something and everything tenses like we just demonstrated with the tongue, everything pushes up also. And then you're yelling, maybe you're pushing from here because you're straining. And that, again, that again, takes the fullness out of your voice. So in learning to drop the voice a bit, it's also going to sound more confident. It'll sound more authoritative. It'll also sound, to your earlier point, calmer. But as a result, that calm is like, I don't need to be strained and stressed. I know what I'm talking about. And you need to listen. So it doesn't have to be the demanding. It's the commanding in a different way. And even being able to own your silence shows people that you meant to do that. You meant to speak or not to speak. And it's all intentional. And that altogether creates a gravitas, creates that intentionality that just makes people trust a little bit more that you are who you say you are and you mean what you say. How do I drop my voice without talking like this? I would say play a little bit. Because the higher you go and the lower you go, if you put your fingers on your voice box, you should feel it moving up and moving down. So to kind of figure out what's your norm and are you pushing? Are you not breathing well from your belly? Are you doing kind of shallow breathing? The more shallowly you're speaking, the higher you're probably pushing your larynx and the squeaky you're going to make your voice. So doing that relaxation, a little more deep breathing, letting your voice box rest rest in the sense of let it drop into a more natural position and speaking from there will allow you to let your instrument play more effectively. Mm-hmm. So I actually just wanted to share one thing on the back of that because when it comes to dropping your voice or adding more gravitas, one of the things that I was told at one point was that I was saying everything as if it was a question. Mm-hmm. Also my opinion. And I found that really helpful that someone said, do you know that you're doing that? So that actively now when I want to make a point, I do that and I drop it at the end of the sentence rather than ask it as a question mark. Yes. So I found that also to be quite helpful. That's referred to as uptalk or upspeak, more technically high-rise terminal, but that's that pattern that a lot of people use where it sounds like they're asking questions because their voice keeps going up at the ends of all their phrases and sentences. And that can undermine your authority because if it sounds like you're inflecting a little tag question like, okay, right, you know, then it's like you're not sure and you're seeking my validation over and over and over again. So by finishing a point and letting your voice drop, that's a vocal period, not a comma, meaning I'm going to keep rambling or a question mark, meaning I'm not sure. Having that intentional declarative tone to your voice also makes you more credible because it sounds like you believe what you're saying. And if you sound like it, they're more likely to. But if you sound like you're not sure, why should they be? This has been really interesting to talk to you about this. So we need to remember if we want to make some progress in a conversation, we should try to think about how we command the room. We should think about connecting to the others that are there and you call it closing the deal, but it might be just getting to the next thing that we want to be doing. So as we round up our conversation, we always like to end with what is it that each of us is going to take into the next conversation we go into. So, Sti? Yeah. For me, it was actually, you exemplified in the very end, the power of silence and having the courage to stop. It touched me when you did so. And it added profoundness to what you just said. And it was just a very, very physical feeling in me of wanting or leaning forward. So it's something I need to play with and have the courage to play with. Thanks. Thank you. And I will be doing a little scan for when I notice the tongue at the roof of my mouth, because I'm sure that is happening and use that as a reminder to take a breath and bring it down a level. Wonderful. What about you, Laura? Oh, I learned something from every conversation I have. And if I appreciate actually the questions that you ask, because it helps me be more present to what's going on in people's minds and clients' minds and helping me to be, to ask more of the questions myself, to get at what's at the heart of whatever your mission is and having the conversation. because then I can address that person's needs better. So thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure.