So every time we have a challenge and upset, everyone does at work and at home, we have challenges. And each one of those challenges is an opportunity to expand our awareness. That's the cool thing about this. And so if people don't want to look at their challenges, guess what? It's going to repeat. Welcome to Changing Conversations, the podcast where we bring you insight on how to harness the power of conversation to make change happen. Today's podcast will be focused on values and consciousness. So what is this? And how does it come into play in leadership and organization? I am joined by Stig. And our guest today is Lisa Doig. And Lisa is a pioneer in the field of values and consciousness, designing, facilitating and training practitioners in profoundly transformational leadership development programs that are accessible to business leaders. Lisa founded Corporate Evolution in 2002. And her background includes 20 years in the oil and gas industry and 15 years working as an external facilitator for McKinsey. And she's a facilitator for McKinsey. Welcome, Lisa. Thank you. Thank you for having me. We're very excited to have you here today. We both know you very well. And let's get the ball rolling with this word that to be honest, I am afraid to use in a corporate space. And that is consciousness. Yes. So I'm less afraid. All right. Good for you, Stig. I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with you. Let's talk about that word and maybe see if we can make it safer for me and others to see what that word could mean in business. Yes. So I'm with you. The first time I heard consciousness, I thought, what are you talking about? And so a very simple definition of consciousness is what I can be aware of and pay attention to. So what that means is my lens is small and I can only see this. Or you were talking about Brian Cox earlier. It can be quite large and my awareness is very expansive. And so when you think about navigating complexity and the challenges we have in business today, there's a lot of research from Keegan and others at Harvard where we need to have the complexity of mind. To solve the complexity of our challenges. So we can't solve them, as Einstein says, from the same level of thinking or consciousness that created it. Like every client, right? You have and we have. The challenges you can't solve from a mindset of fear. Right? If there's fear in the organization and fear driving it, you cannot be innovative. You can't shift paradigm of what's possible. And certainly in the world today, that's what's being asked for. can, so I need to recap because I think there's going to be a lot of big abstract thoughts in this conversation. So I'm going to do a little bit of recapping and be the stupid one for a little while. Right. But so you started out by saying that it's and you held your hand together in a small way. Yes. So it's like your lens. You can only see a small part of the screen. If you are kind of imagining we're looking at a screen that is your full ability to see the bigger picture. Yes. And you can only see a very small spot on that screen. And that's maybe a lower level of consciousness. And in order to be able to see as much as possible, that is what it means to have a small part of the screen. Yes. And then you also talked about fear. And if I, if I'm just testing this. So in order to expand my little dot on the screen to a bigger one, I'm going to be working with fears? Question mark? Or? Yes. Yes. So maybe it would help to set a kind of frame of the framework of consciousness. Yes. I mean, you both know about the seven levels, Barrett, seven levels of consciousness. And when I first came to this, I was a workaholic, perfectionist, really success was everything, was my identity. And at 40, I collapsed with pneumonia. And I came out of that. And luckily, McKinsey's first pilot program for integrating personal and organizational transformation was in Perth, where I live, for an oil company. And I went to that course where they were doing the personal transformation. And it blew my socks off. I left there. And I had actually shifted consciousness, I shifted awareness. And one of the frames they showed was the spirit seven levels of consciousness, which is similar to the adult stages of development, right? So as adults, we develop and we grow in stages. And with that might be one point pause already, because the old, you know, the old conception of this was that you got to like 20 or something. And then you're just like, well, that's how I am. I'm not really going to develop anymore. Right. And then more research has been done that shows that as adults, we, we do, in fact, continue to learn and, and transform ourselves and be able to develop. And we're going to take in the world in a different way. Exactly. That's the first thing that needs to be. Exactly. Understood. Yes. So as so we have the capacity to grow and develop and to expand our awareness. But what we have to do is when you think about Maslow and our basic needs, most of us, in fact, 70 to 75% of the adult population live in what Keaton calls the socialized mind. So we're living from the programs from our parents. Right. And if you think about the basic needs of safety, love, belonging, and self-esteem, we're driven by our old story when we didn't yet have the logical, rational mind, whatever pain or pleasure we experienced from our childhood. That belief that I am loved, I am safe, or I am enough unconsciously runs our life. So when we're in business, all of our triggers, are really memories of that belief system. It's almost like a program. We have programs. So when you say bring up fears, well, that's running our life. So the more we can become aware, so the work we do, and you guys do, is the first, you know, piece of self-awareness is being on the balcony to understand, I'm living this life of the child's belief. And we can actually rewire that and, you know, the neuroplasticity idea. So the more we can become aware of our fears and our old stories and transform those, we become free. And that's how consciousness expands. Yes. And you said before we started this, we were just chit-chatting a little bit, and you said something about that you've come to a point where you really want to work with people that want to go there. Yes. And you don't want to, if I may paraphrase you, waste your time convincing people that there's something to understand in this space. Can you say a little bit about what do you see, what do you experience, or what should we experience if we don't want to go there as leaders? If I don't want to look at that, you know, I'm doing fine, I'm performing, you know. Yeah, I think this work is for someone who's ready and willing. It's not for someone who has their defense up to go, I don't need this. Everyone needs it. You know, it's just awareness. And so we all have defenses around us that keep us safe and stuck. Yes. Right? So we either comply, we protect, or we control. That's our defense structure, because we don't want to feel our fear. So every time we have a challenge and upset, everyone does. At work and at home, we have challenges. And each one of those challenges is an opportunity to expand our awareness. Yes. That's the cool thing about this. And so if people don't want to look at their challenges, guess what? It's going to repeat. I call it rinse and repeat cycle. Why do I get the same boss? Why do I get the same relationship? It's all because we're stuck in that belief structure that, you know, kept us safe. But how much is it actually that they really don't want to look at it consciously? It's funny to use that word. But, you know, versus, I don't know, I find that people, when they're repeating patterns, including myself, it's more like because I am just in it. You know, I'm just, it's not that I don't want to look at it. It's just that I, quote, unquote, I don't have time. Yes. Yeah, but I echo that. And then at the same time, when you start unpacking this and explore it a little bit, my experience is that every one of us have some kind of a inner yearning or longing for something bigger. Yes. Most of us have a yearning for daring to share a little more of who we really are. Yes. So we bring the part of us to the table, not least in organizations, that we, for strange reasons, find appropriate. And that means that I'm leaving a large part of my gifts as a human aside. I don't bring them to work. I might not even bring them to life. Because why? Why do you think that? Because I'm scared, of course, of if I do, and you look at me and say, Jesus Christ, then my, it's almost like I'm nothing. So therefore, I play safe over here. That's your program, by the way. Exactly. I'm nothing. No. Yeah. Yeah. And it works fine. And therefore, and I think with aging, I think you have the opportunity of getting a little more courageous and daring to show more of that and therefore also potentially have a larger gift to give to other humans' organizations. That's sitting there waiting for everyone. And so what happens is the outside external reality, you know, there's like whispers and whispers and whispers from your higher self or soul, whatever you call it, until you hear the screams. So I need to hear the scream in my breakdown. Yes. But we're getting whispers all the time. You have this uncomfortable, you have this knowing, but you're not doing anything about it until it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And that's a wake up call. We had a cool podcast with David White a while ago. And one of the things he has shared with me is that his sense is that all of us are living seven, eight years behind the consciousness we already have. So we have access to that. It's not something new we need to learn. It's actually just having the courage to lean into what we actually already know. Yes. Yes. And I would actually say, well, I would, I think we're seven to eight years behind our next level of growth, but I actually think we are what we would call level seven consciousness. We are, we are everything. We are what Brian Cox is talking about. I truly believe the life journey is to realize who we really are, which is everything. So, okay. I'm also having an awareness that this is, I love this. And also it is abstract. So I'm wondering if we can bring in examples or, you know, how we might work with this. We've also mentioned the Barrett seven levels of consciousness a few times. So I think it might be helpful to just describe what that is. And then if we can get into, I mean, I'm terrified to say some examples, because you're probably going to have a few times. You're going to ask me. But anyway, leading into that. All right. So let me come back to the seven levels, which is a model of consciousness mapped against Maslow as the starting point. Okay. So we know we have these basic needs, right? And if we're still feeling the need for safety, we don't believe I'm safe. Right? So level one is safety. Level two is love belonging. Level three is self-esteem. Now, what's interesting is whatever we value in life are mapped against each of these seven levels. So it's a values map that reflects the level of consciousness. So if I'm, you know, my whole story is I've never been, I have a life history of not being safe, whatever happened. I probably will value things like control. I'll value things like safety. And so whatever, the values that are important to me right now actually reflect my level of consciousness. So when I saw this for the first time, my whole body started shaking. I was like, oh my God, why didn't no one ever tell me about this? Because I realized the first three levels are all your ego trying to keep you safe. Right? Like the level two of love and belonging, being the youngest of four girls, I felt totally forgotten about. So I came up with this belief that no one's there for me. Now I unconsciously that has been running my whole life. Why can't I collaborate? Because unconsciously I have this belief there's no one there for me. So I self-sabotage every collaboration. They're going to leave me just like dot, dot, dot. I can also build on that one because so I know that one of my ones is belonging. Actually, I know that my number one is belonging. I moved country a lot growing up. I was in international school at some point. So people came and went. We came and went and I never belonged to one sort of tribe. And so I can see that now. So for example, coming back from my maternity leaves. And of course, life goes on when I'm in maternity leave and people have meetings with each other. And I remember saying to you and to others kind of like, why am I not being invited? Actually, I didn't say it to you. I probably just thought they are leaving me out. And like, I'm back and they're leaving me out. And then I kind of got a push from another one of our good colleagues who kind of said, so what part of this might you be creating yourself? And then I kind of had the opportunity to say, okay, yeah, I do have this story that I don't belong. So I will make it up. And that was really helpful to kind of know. Can you take, I want, thank you for sharing. I want to know more about the seven. What are the seven? So you covered some of that. So I talked about the second love belonging. The third one is self-esteem, which is a natural developmental piece, which we do in our kind of twenties of being competent at something. But if we have the story that I'm not enough or I'll never be good enough because father, mother, whatever the story was, if we become identified with that need, well, for me, well, for me, talking personally, I became a workaholic perfectionist. As a little kid, I played piano. So practicing and being the best was everything. And being the best was my belief system. So therefore, I couldn't really be a team player, you know. And business generally, I would say is in the self-esteem phase. Probably most organizations are. It's all about performance, right? But if the message is you're being rated on your own performance, well, of course, I have to compete with everyone else. So then there comes a time, level four. So levels one, two, three is the ego trying to protect us. Like, don't make it all wrong. There's positive in shadows. Level four is the time in our life when we go, what got me here won't get me there. Yes. At work and at home. And so it's a wake up call where we get up on the balcony and we realize these are my fears. These are my programs. And I have the skills to actually transform them. The big thing at level four is I realize I'm part of the problem. So there's no more blame or judgment. So level four is really the transformational phase. And when you think about organizations, they're all want to be in that. They want to be innovative. They want to be adaptive. They want to be agile. Well, you need the consciousness to be agile. If you're stuck competing and thinking you're not, you know, you're not loved, all those agile principles won't work. So the level four is really the turning point. And once I become highly self-aware and I realize, you know, these programs I can transform and be free and liberated from them, then you really ask the question at five, who am I and why am I really here? And that's purpose and authenticity. And you hear loads of stuff about authenticity now, right? That's a high level of consciousness that I'm willing to be an integrity to myself. Right? Am I really living my values 10 out of 10? If you're not, you're not authentic. There's some story that's still a play. And so once I'm level five, but authenticity. And once I, you know, I'm in transformation, I'm able to transform every upset to a setup and live my life. values and be authentic. Your presence shifts. Right? Now we hear a lot about presence. It's a high level of consciousness. Because I'm free of judgments of self and other. So level six is about collaboration or emergence. We hear a lot about emergence, right? That's a high level of consciousness to let go of control and not have to be certain. Like I hear a lot of consciousness. Like I hear a lot of people who want clarity and certainty. Well, at that level, look at the world. That's not what it's asking for. Right? So then you become the sensor and the systemic sensor of what's happening. And you allow something new to emerge. I feel like that's where we are in the world. And so I'm living my purpose and I'm an attractor field. Things naturally synchronistically come to me. So that's level six. And level seven is you know, you know, in the Vedic philosophy would be unity consciousness where I am you, you are me. Like everyone who's triggering me is an aspect of me. And that's a completely different way to get to. And then I, you know, my purpose is coming through me. Instead of having a purpose, I'm living the purpose through my being. That's what seven is. And the work in this field, the work you have inspired us with and that we try to incorporate in different leadership stuff. That is creating an awareness around where am I in this? And what are these opposing forces that are kind of constantly keeping me where I'm at? And what is that trigger point or acupuncture point that kind of moves me on? Is that right? Yeah. Where am I in this seven levels? Yes. Where do I want to be? What's in the way? That's it. Yes. And the simplicity, the thing I got really excited by is values are our GPS. Whatever is number one or two value in your life right now, that's guiding you because it's probably challenged. For me, belonging is a big one. Yeah. And the sense of not belonging. So what's the biggest challenge in your life right now? That's a big one. That's a big one. What's one of them? Yeah. One of them is this ongoing theme of belonging. So this feeling of being outside. Okay. Not really being part of, you know, something, but actually constantly playing a song where I'm a little bit on the side of everything. Yes. Because I feel I'm not, I don't belong anywhere. I'm not part of it. Something is going on and I'm not really part of it. Yes. So, so, so. So if you were living, so let's say your value is belonging. Yes. Okay. Yes. And how much would you say on a scale of zero to 10, you're living the value of belonging? So what does 10 look like for you? 10, 10 would be just naturally feeling as part of whatever I'm in, whether it's my family, whether it's coworkers, whether it's working with a client, but just feeling unity. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So we're already hearing your yearning. Yes. Yes. Not a big problem. So where would you be zero to 10 on? So we know what 10 is for you. Yeah. Give yourself a number zero to 10. On a good day of four. Okay. Yeah. And what's the belief that keeps you at a four and not a 10? The belief is that I don't belong, that I am outside. Yes. And I, I'm not worthy of belonging. Yes. Yeah. So that's the work we would do. Yeah. Yeah. And if I looked at, if we looked at your, let's say top three, my guess is they would all have the same belief structure. They all have the same program. Yes. Okay. Yes. So on a high balcony, you know, that's the same program. That's a challenge in your life in order for you to step into really who you are, which is at level seven, which is really quite interesting. Like at a soul level, that's who you know you are. Yes. And so I would say you create these upsets. I'm going to say you create. Yes. These upsets. Definitely. Through your belief system. Definitely. And so can I play with you and just do one thing? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So just close your eyes for a moment. Yes. And connect with that belief. I don't belong. Okay. And how do you feel in your body when you believe that? Contraction. Okay. And is that a hundred percent true? You don't belong? No. Okay. So just, you feel that contraction. Just imagine picking up that belief. I don't belong. Okay. You're picking it up. You're putting it in the next room, put it on the floor, close the door. You can pick it up later if you like. Okay. Able to do that? Yeah. Okay. Now connect back with your heart and ask your heart. If I would be, if I put that belief aside, who would I be? Just let your heart speak, not your head. If I put that belief aside, ask your heart, who would I be? Yeah. I would be, I would be, uh, not judgmental. I would be, uh, warm hearted, more open, bring more joy into whatever I'm in. And do you feel expansive or constricted? Of course, it's a much more expansive feeling. Uh, so that's your true self. Yes. That's your authentic self. Yes. When you don't believe a belief. So that's how we're working with this. And ask, and with that connection with the true self, what value is now calling you to be lived more fully for you, for you to connect with that fully as your way of being. Okay. And I'm going to ask your heart, not your head. What value is calling you now to be lived more fully or courageously? What's your heart say? I think it's difficult. That's your head. Yeah. It's my head. Yeah. It's because we're sitting here with the camera on and so forth. I think it's, I think, I think I need more time for that, not to be just serving you, but coming from me. Yeah. Um, but I know where we're going and I love it, but I also know that some people will feel this is therapy work. I mean, we're trying to run a business. I mean, come on. Can I, yeah. Can I give you an example? Yeah. So we're working in a iconic real retailer that everyone knows. And we get brought in by the CEO and the leadership team because there was massive dynamics and upsets and not working together, not aligned. So we usually first come in and do an alignment, you know, purpose of the team, you know, common way of working, blah, blah, blah. And then we do the deeper work where they do a 360, do the deeper work and massive transformation. They love each other. You know, they're connected. It's going like hotcakes and then they didn't continue. So big upsets, silos, um, something happened so disastrous in terms of relationship that the team totally split apart. Um, called us back two years later. And, um, um, we re did the pro we, there were new team members, um, honest conversations, talk about your fears, um, connect with who we want to be. And there was such a big insight that they hadn't continued the work. Um, and the thing is that, each of those team members is running that unconscious life we talked about, the not belonging, not safe, not good enough. Everyone is running their unconscious program. So here we are trying to solve complex problems in the world. And really everyone is kind of a seven year old little boy or girl playing out. So if they're not aware and not using the tools, then it's pretty hard to shift an organization. Yes. It's yeah. And I think that, so I've thought of this, recently, you know, a few years ago, we, we, we, we got really inspired by this idea of humanocracy where one of the things that, that people do to reduce bureaucracy in organizations is to fire. So one of the companies fired 10,000 middle managers. And, and so that is an idea that's kind of going around there, like go out and just, you know, fire the middle managers. Cause it's, you know, that's cutting bureaucracy and sure. There are probably a lot of great things around that. And, and all that, but I couldn't help but think about, it's like, you know, imagine the organization as your body. And then you just kind of like rip out a part of it. And then to talk about why we shouldn't need therapy, like, or as in, imagine the breach of trust or imagine the kind of trauma you're putting into place when you make huge moves that are right for business. But we are humans in the business. And I just like, I just came to think about when it's like, you know, we shouldn't have therapy. We shouldn't talk about all these feelingsy things. But, you know, imagine that setup where, you know, you're either in mass uncertainty or you're, you know, I don't know. I would just reframe the word therapy and say self-awareness. Why would we not want to become self-aware? Why would we not want to become free of our fears? Yes. Why would we not want to connect with that kind of sole purpose that, that you know is within you? And you, the way I hear you is that you, you're basically, you're basically saying, maybe I'm pushing it too far, but, but you're saying that, that, that if you want an organizational transformation, you can't do that without an individual transformation. Yes. So, so you can't separate those two things. Absolutely. And I would say of the CEO has to start. Okay. I really would. We've had 25 years experience of this. Okay. And if the CEO is not up for it, not up for self-awareness and growth, nobody else is going to do it. No. Why, why is that? Because we are a hierarchical, hierarchical structure and everyone's looking to the father or the mother for guidance. So, I mean, I've, we've had so many organizations where sometimes they say, oh, do the middle layer and the executive team isn't really doing the work. Um, so what I've seen is when the CEO is up for it, it is an incredible, they, people feel held. Otherwise it's really not safe. You know, you are being vulnerable. You are sharing your fears. And if at the end of the day, they don't feel safe in it, you're actually creating more unsafety. I think you have to be really careful with that. I can't help thinking about, um, we, we touched upon this thing about that. You have as a, as a human, you have an outer horizon, which is, you know, where you want to take stuff and how expensive can we be and how imaginative can we be as to what is possible for us. Yes. And, and then you also have an inner horizon. Yes. And, and, uh, in a way, what you're saying is that if our inner horizon is shallow, yes, then, we're limited, our outer horizon also gets a little bit shallow. You, you need, it's limited. Yeah. If you, if you want to be big and, and expansive, uh, outerly, you actually need a quite profound contact with, with your inner horizon. So otherwise you panic. And is that, is that, is that metaphor? Absolutely. Our inner belief system is creating our outer reality. Yes. And when you have that transformation, like when I came out of that, just that three, three day course, even what we did the last two days, you come out and you see the world through different lens. Everything's a filter. Yes. So as soon as I shift realization of who I am, my world shifts. And that's why I think it's a crying out for the challenges we have today. The, our, the more fear we have and the more polarity we have, Yes. The more stuck we are. Right. And so the more that I shift within and let go of, it's always at the end of the day, self, self love, self, um, esteem, feeling safe. When I feel that, then I'm like, anything's possible. What, what I think is, what I think is beautiful about what, what you bring to life here is that it's very difficult to, if we go back to the theme of today, consciousness, a word that at least within business is rarely used because it feels spiritual or something. So, so it's not, but, but also where we want to go. I mean, sometimes our language is too small for where we need to go. And I think consciousness is a word that at least opens a door, for a deeper understanding. And I think what, what you do with Barrett's levels of consciousness is that you are actually giving me a language for how to work with something that can seem super abstract. Yes. But it's actually, you know, I've looked a lot upon this. It's, it's actually one slide. And, and when you, it's a roadmap. And when you walk through intuitively, it resonates with you. And suddenly I have a language. Exactly. Like when I first came to, I actually thought being successful was the end of the line. Okay. I'm successful. That's what I was supposed to grow up to do. I'm there. I thought that was it. Yes. There's a four or five, six, seven. So it's, and it's nice to know, okay, I've, I've, you know, been freed of this mindset. I'm here. It's so wonderful to know, oh, there's that. And there's that. And there's that. But I'll tell you the big thing I've taken away from this conversation. So, which I feel is a real truth. When you said, I know within me, this is my vision. So everyone has a knowing within them. And most of us, we just kind of push it aside because I have this need to belong. But the more that you connect with that light that's within you, and you give it space, more you give it space, that old voice of not belonging actually doesn't get airtime. Exactly. So you're rewiring. The more space you give that and step into it. And this is practical. Yes. Always, I think, okay, I'm stepping into this new value. What's the experiment? Because I don't want to fail, of course. So I'm just going to play with experiments. Okay. So my experience, I'll tell you what happened. Last year, or a year and a half ago, I went to Mobius' Next Practice Institute. I gave a break out there. And I was so inspired by Amy Fox with her generosity to bring so many practitioners in. And the Gaza War started. And I thought, I feel really helpless. And I was so inspired by her value of generosity. And I thought, oh, what the hell? I'm just going to give this stuff away for free. So I put out this Shifting Consciousness Summit. In a month, we had 700 people. Now, that was an experiment. Because I don't really live generosity. I hadn't. And I thought, what the, right? I'm going to walk the talk, live this work. And I thought, I'm just going to put an experiment out there. And it was effortless flow, joy. But the liberating, I love that idea. Thank you for sharing. And I think what's liberating is that, okay, when you know what you are yearning to bring more of, and you have that clarity. Yes. I mean, it is every meeting you go into, if you just connect for 30 seconds to who do I really want to show up as? Yes. Like, what's the consciousness I'm going to bring into this conversation? How do I hold this conversation at my best and not as the little me? That is, so I think it's a, talking about conversations, I think it's actually a very liberating, sobering thing that I can bring this perspective into any conversation. It can be playful. It doesn't have to be a serious, I'm going to relive my values. I'm going to be conscious, you know? Just go, I'm going to hold vision or purpose and play with it and see what happens in your meeting. You'll be amazed. So when we're talking about this sort of connecting to the sense of who I really am and what I really am here to do, I think one interesting thing that needs to happen, at least for me, is that when I first met you, I didn't straight away have access to that. I think the first thing that I needed to do was start to identify what are all the voices that are in me that belong to someone else. And I can tell when I'm talking with some other peers and I'm guessing this might also be something about age, but let's see. Sometimes I think people can't hear what it is that's on the inside because it's so covered in, oh, I need to please, I need to do what Stee likes because, yeah, that's what, you know, pleasing him and, oh, what does Lisa want me to say? And, oh, what do my friends think? Will I look uncool if I do this? Or, you know, all of those voices, I think, foggy the ability to actually listen to yourself. So I kind of wanted to just hear any advice to you, because I think one thing is fine to say, hey, connect, it's inside of you. But also acknowledging that for many people, you can't just like, oh, that's an interesting idea. I'm going to stop. What is it? Or can you? I don't know. Oh, that's a great question. The first step is to want to. Like there has to be a will to want to change or want to become more self-aware. So you came on the course. And there is something about space. So one, I want to become more self-aware. And two, I'm going to create the space, which could be coming on a course or it could be doing coaching or like you actually have to, I mean, I had a breakdown. I was not listening to the whispers. The space was forced on you. The space was forced and it is forced on a lot of us, actually. So from that place, you know, we offer a lot of tools just to become self-aware. Like that super simple one I did with you, which is, what are your top three values? How much are you living them? Zero to 10. What's a 10? Most people won't even say what a 10 is. They keep being in self-judgment and all the reasons they can't do it. Well, actually write down a piece of paper. If I were living, you know, integrity, 10 out of 10, what would that be? Give myself a number and what's a belief in the way? So that belief is your transformation. Mm-hmm. And everyone is walking around with us. Yeah. We did have fun yesterday. We did the fears exercise, right? Yeah. What is the fears exercise? So I said to everyone, I said, okay, this is going to be fun. Of course, nobody wants to work on their fears, right? Oh, yes. And so everybody listed all their fears. And then we said, what's a core fear? So yours would be not belonging, right? And we said, write it in huge letters, stand up. And we had 25 people yesterday and everyone's standing up with their fears. You know, I said, go find your fear friends. So we had a group of not loved people. We had a group of not enough and a group of, you know, safety. And we did two ways of it, which was, how is this fear not serving you? So first of all, it's fun because everyone's getting up and shocked that everyone has fears. Yes. Like everyone is standing up totally vulnerable with their fears. It's terrifying. Firstly, writing your fear in a freaking big marker on a big paper and then turning it around and showing it. Yes. 25 people. I mean, it was terrifying. But then this moment where you're like, okay, funnily enough, we all have the same fears. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there is two. One round is how is fear not serving you? And, you know, everyone knows that one. But then you turn around and how has that fear of not belonging, actually served you actually served you? Right? So here you built this organization. Like you could list all those things. What values became important to me because of that fear? Never thought of that. So the fear has helped me be who I am. Because of that, I am this. And most people don't own who this is. So a really big reframe is the fear is the whisper. Yes. Of who you really are. That's a total reframe of fear. So every time I feel fear is like, ah. Thank you. That's asking me to be this. This is who I really am. Okay. So again, as usual, I feel like we just do like a five hour episode. I have one last thing maybe before we do a round of closing and it's just because I cannot help. Whenever I imagine saying the word consciousness in some big corporate, I just, imagine that they think that I'm saying, let's go to a field and dance around with flowers and then be Gandhi afterwards. And that is, you know, that's what holds me back to some degree from saying those words slash help me, help me be more brave. Can I challenge you? Yes. That's your fear. Yeah. And that's your greatest growth. Because you have held this work for how many years have I known you? Six. Six years. Yeah. She's continued the journey. She has made every upset into every setup. You are so expansive and you have such a vision. You are very, very powerful. And this belief that I can't talk about consciousness is in the way of you being the greatness of who you are. Damn it. Steve, what do you think of that? Does that resonate, Steve? Yeah, it does. It does. That's your next thing is owning it. And not just me, but everybody. We all. I promise to, though. And maybe this is a good thing. It's just a whisper. It's a whisper. God, you know, when you ask a question and then it's just turned right around on you, it's perfect. Yeah, but you attracted me to this conversation. It's all in service of you. All right. Thank you. This has been so interesting on so many levels. And we always end off these podcasts by saying, what are we going to take from this conversation into the next? Yeah. And, yeah. I mean, for me, it's, yeah. This was a little bit of a mic drop moment where I need to be more brave in being authentic and bringing this word and this work into everything I do, including the next conversation. How about you, Steve? Yeah, it's the same. I think whenever I'm exposed to this type of thinking, I'm reminded. I need to be reminded of who I can show up as. And I need a practice to remind me of that. Because I know intuitively what it is. I also know who I aspire to show up as. I just need to be reminded. I'm actually not so fearful of it either. At least that layer. And then there's the next one, of course, for me. And the next one and the next one. But having the courage to manifest that. That's what I leave with. Actually running into the next meeting. I know exactly how I want to show up. That's very cool. And I also know how I would have shown up. Yes. Hadn't we had this conversation. Yeah. So thank you. How about you, Lisa? Well, just to finish on yours, because the word I got when you put the belief aside, who would I be? For you, I got love. Yeah. That's what I got. So turn up with that at the meeting. Yeah. The thing that really stuck with me was your saying, I know within me. I know I am this. And everyone has that. So the more aware and the more you do the transformation work, the more in touch we get with knowing that piece and then allowing it to be in front of us instead of in back of us. So just know, I mean, this conversation has not to be fearful of this, of bringing this work to business, because everyone has that knowing within them. And what could be a better service to help people, you know, be in their greatest self? We have a, right now actually with one of our, one of my good friends and colleagues, Tor. He's a fantastic example of this because his story is that he was living in fear like most of us. Then he got diagnosed with cancer and that cancer kind of took away all the fog. Yeah. And, and, and gave him clarity as to who he wanted to be. And he was that. Wow. And then he got through the cure and was cured. And then little by little, he gave in on being who he really was. And then he got the cancer back. And he had to get it back again and again to basically get to a point where, so it's, it's just interesting that we can have that deep, deep realization. Yeah. And then for weird reasons, we, we, we, we, we let it go and we fall into a smaller self. And then in his case, he had to be reminded again by the greatest fear you can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. So when I speak to him now, he's, he's now in, in treatment again. It's actually that thing about how, how can I tell people to, to, to, to, to, to hold on to, to that. Anything to, to, to, you know, because I know him a bit. Yeah. And he is a shiny light is who he really is. Yes. And I would just hold the knowing that what he's going through, sorry, this sounds a bit airy fairy, but it's taking him to the light. Mm-hmm. Because he's a very special person. Yes. And what can we do, us who have a glimpse of, this and then fall into the shallow me. I just go hold him in a knowing. Hold him in a knowing that there's perfection to everything. See, that's level 6-7. There's nothing wrong. Don't hold fear with him. Hold love in knowing. You know? Thank you. Thank you both. It was so nice to be with you. So nice, yeah. How did this conversation resonate with you? Get in touch via the link in the show notes to share your questions, challenges, and opinions. And until next time, take care.