Dr. I think thanks for the feedback captures that initial reactive, thanks for the feedback, goodbye, when we don't feel grateful for the feedback. And it's really about the journey from that sarcastic dismissive, thanks, goodbye, to a genuine place where you are grateful for and appreciating the feedback. And I think that we go back and forth in terms of our conflicted feelings about most feedback that we get. My name's Katrina. And I'm Steve. And we are curious about how changing conversations can change organizations. Yeah, and together with our community of transformation nerds, we're exploring how to leverage conversations to make our workplaces more fit for humans, but also more fit for the future. We'll use our podcast series to do just that, while being in conversation with business and thought leaders who have interesting perspectives on the topic. So without further ado, let's start the conversation. Today's guest is Sheila Heen. Sheila is the founder of Triad Consulting Group and a lecturer on law at Harvard Law School. She is the co-author of two New York bestsellers, Thanks for the Feedback and Difficult Conversations. She's been working with companies ranging from Pixar to Unilever to the NBA and many more on difficult conversations, negotiation and sound decision making. We've invited Sheila to learn how we can become better feedback receivers in our conversations. That is what we'd love to talk to you about today. Sheila, lots of things about feedback. So welcome. Well, I'm delighted to be here. So where should we start, Steve? I think you've got a good question. I don't know why. I love the title, Thanks for the Feedback. Could you tell us why is it called Thanks for the Feedback? Yeah. Well, so as you can imagine, trying to find a title for a book about feedback is tough because we had to think, how are we going to name this book so that people want to pick it up off the shelf? And although we all know we're supposed to like feedback and we're supposed to welcome it and it's a gift and yada, yada, yada. In fact, I actually think the word itself is almost repelling. I don't know what's your reaction to the word. Why? What are the associations you have with that word? I associate it with critique. Yes. And also in itself, I think it's an ugly word. Yeah. Feedback. It feels like a knife. Oh. And I think it holds very little invitation. So it just feels one way. It feels... Can I give you some feedback, Steve? No, absolutely not. No, no, no, thanks. I know you think to yourself, no, but of course you know what to say. Yes, of course. No, but it's weird because if you ask, do you want feedback? Initially, I feel like saying no thanks. And on the other way, I don't want to give feedback. I'd love to have a conversation on something. So there's something I would like to explore with you around what's at play here since... Let's take for granted that more people feel a little bit like that. Yes. What's at play? So part of the story of the title of the book, which revolves around our reactions to that word, have to do with the struggle to find a word that would be more inviting. So when we sold the book to our publisher, the working title was actually Pull, P-U-L-L, because the idea is that most organizations have a push model of learning. I decide what you need to learn, and I give you feedback to get you to learn it. And given that we were flipping that on its head to take a look at the challenges of receiving feedback, the idea is that organizations need to flip to have a pull model of feedback, or at least a balanced model of feedback if they're really going to get traction. So, great. We thought this was brilliant. We were very proud of it. And we went down to New York and had dinner with our publisher, and he got us all liquored up first, and he said, can I give you some feedback about the title? And we thought to ourselves, no. But of course, we said, sure. And he said, it's too opaque. It's not transparent enough what the book is about. And it's a little Gladwellian, right? Because Malcolm Gladwell, particularly at that time, had started this trend of one-word titles. So that set us off on this quest to figure out what the hell to call this book. And the suggestion actually, you know, we had lists and lists and lists of ideas. They were all terrible. The suggestion actually came from a colleague of ours. And instantly, I was like, that's the title. That's definitely the title. Because I think Thanks for the Feedback captures that initial, reactive, reactive, yeah, thanks for the feedback, goodbye, when we don't feel grateful for the feedback. And it's really about the journey from that sarcastic, dismissive, thanks, goodbye, to a genuine place where you are grateful for and appreciating the feedback. And I think that we go back and forth in terms of our conflicted feelings about most feedback that we get. It might be worth adding the little asterisk that's on the front page, which I really enjoy. So thanks for the feedback. Even when it's off base, unfair, poorly delivered, and frankly, you're not in the mood. I think that covers it really well. And I think it's a nice kind of segue also into talking about maybe just your top points then. Okay, I'm going to, Steve says to me, Katrina, I'm going to give you some feedback now. Or would you like some feedback? Maybe. Maybe. And then, so that is terrifying. And I'm going to go into that conversation. How can I prepare myself to receive it in the best way possible? All right. So one of the things that I think was most interesting to me was partly just the insight that while we had been, and most people focus on all of the skills around giving, that receiving is actually a skill. And it's a leadership skill. And it's a learning skill. And if you can get better at it, you can actually take charge of and accelerate your own learning. It gives you a lot more control. I don't have to wait around for like the perfect givers to show up because they are not the people I live with or work with. And so once we started looking into the question of like, what's so hard about taking in feedback other people have for us, which might be formal and verbal, specific and direct, but often it's also indirect and informal, even unspoken, but it's the little signals we're getting about how something is landing or the way that we're impacting other people in the world. And then we took a look at three kinds of triggered reactions that people have when they get feedback and we call them truth triggers, relationship triggers, and identity triggers. Oh, exciting. You have to open them up a bit more. I have to open them up a bit more. That is true. So thank you for the coaching. I almost want to ask you, Steve, for when you got feedback, maybe it could be recently, it could be a while ago to explain your reaction to us. And then maybe we could hear, we could hear Sheila's analysis. Can you do it? Tell us a piece of feedback you didn't take and why you didn't take it. Yeah. I, I got feedback from a colleague, uh, out of a, we did a client presentation and, uh, I got feedback from a colleague, uh, and, uh, I got feedback from a colleague and I'm not even sure. I told the person that I didn't take the feedback. I got the feedback, but immediately dismissed it. And the reason why I dismissed this was a combination of, I thought that that person didn't see the full picture and didn't understand the context of which I chose to do what I did. So I didn't feel that the person was qualified, honestly, to give me feedback in that field. So I, in a very polite way, just said, yeah, okay, thanks. That's nice. La la. And went on with it and literally thought, okay, I'm not using that for much. Yeah. Okay. So that's such a great example of first of all, a truth trigger, because the first reaction we have is, is this true or is it not? Is it relevant or is it not? Do they really understand the situation? Is it good advice or is it bad advice? And that's how we're evaluating sort of the content of the feedback. And that's a truth trigger. And then the second, the relationship trigger is all about who gave you the feedback. Do you like them? Do you trust them? Do you think they're credible? Do they know what they're talking about? Do they think they have your best interests in mind or do they have their own agenda? Right? How they gave you the feedback was kind of pathetic. Right? And when they gave it to you was inappropriate. And if I can find something wrong with the who, or I have a reaction to the who, it overshadows the what. Right? And so it sounds like you had both of those triggered reactions. I'm curious about the third kind of trigger, an identity trigger, because that's all about the story we tell about who we are and also about our sensitivity to feedback. And I don't know what you would say in terms of whether you feel that generally you are highly sensitive to feedback, which also means big reactions and takes quite a while to recover for you, or if you're pretty even keel about feedback. Like it rolls off of you more quickly. What do you think? I'm curious as to what do you think? About you? Because we were, yeah. Oh, that's a good question. That's a good question. My impression is that it's more sort of stable and that my impression, oh wait, now I'm saying it. No, okay. Actually, I would say it does hit you. I think it sinks into you and can affect your thoughts around, especially something that matters to you. So maybe it is more on the sensitive side. How would you respond to that? You need to have a chance to defend yourself. I think, I think, uh, what I try to do and I'm not always successful in it, but that is when I sense that someone is either deliberately or not deliberately giving me feedback. I try to, when I'm at my best to come from a point of, it's my task to figure out what's the gift in this. Yes. So it might be off in so many ways that could lead me to say, not today. This is, but there's always a gift somewhere. Yes. Yes. So I deliberately try to force myself to say, Hey, be curious, figure out what's somewhere, something that holds the truth that I can use for something. I'm not saying I'm doing it well all the time, but it's, it's, it's something that's actually close to me. So, so, so partly I would say, and we can take this apart that, that you are actually using some very specific skills related to both the identity triggers and truth triggers, which we'll talk about in a couple of minutes, but it also sounds like you need to use the skills. Like you have to consciously choose because otherwise on the inside, maybe you're having a bigger reaction than you're letting on. If I don't have that balcony connection about who I am and where I'm at, I'm, I won't get it. It's simply just, you know, I need to connect with that. Hey, here's a gift for you. Yes. And if I don't, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so you're really beautifully illustrating the ways in which you can talking about receiving feedback as a skill means that you can with training, get yourself to stay in the triggered reaction rather than running away from it. It's like, so my, my husband who also teaches negotiation, by the way, so you can imagine what the conversations at my house are like. Um, but he's also a volunteer fireman and EMT in our town. So he went to fire, the fire Academy in his forties. He was the oldest person there by quite a ways. They called him Pappy. But, um, he talks about how hard it is to train yourself to run toward a fire, a big fire or run into a fire because your whole body is telling you to get out. But with training, you can step into the danger, which is partly, I think the set of skills that surround receiving feedback to not let the triggered reaction be the end of the story. Because if it's the end of the story, I'm scanning the feedback for what's wrong with it. There has to be something wrong with it. Oh, I know what's wrong with it. They don't really understand the whole situation and they don't know what they're talking about. Right. And so and what they're suggesting wouldn't work. Great. Now that I've spotted what's wrong with it, I can safely set it aside and go on with my life. But that's too binary a question that rather than scanning for what's right or what's wrong, there's always going to be something wrong with it. So the key is where's the gift. The key is, is there even 10% of this that might be valuable to me? And in order to figure that out, I actually need to first better understand the feedback. And so I have to lean in to be curious and listen to what exactly is my giver trying to tell me? What are they suggesting that I do differently here? And that has to do with a bundle of skills that are, we tend to pair them with the truth triggers, which is the challenge to see, to see what my giver is trying to tell me and also to see myself accurately. Because they may see something that's actually hard for me to see about myself. And if I can be curious enough to explore that, like you, I usually find at least something to consider. And it could be that what they're suggesting would never work. But the thing that I walk away with is, oh, actually, this is a bigger problem than I thought. What they're suggesting I don't think would work. But if they noticed it, it's a bigger issue. And I should put my attention there and figure out some different way to handle it, for instance. And that might be, that might be the 10%. Yeah. And I think there's also an element of, I remember in particular, Katrina, a time where you gave me feedback. And there was obviously some truth in that. But it was actually, it wasn't until we together kind of actually got two or three layers deeper as to what is it actually that's at play here. Something that I wouldn't want to look at. Something that I wouldn't want to look at because it was embarrassing or something, something to do with my ego or something that was very, very close to my identity. So, so it took a little bit of uncovering jointly and, and, and, and, and probably would have been difficult unless there was some kind of an intimate conversation or platform of trust that kind of allowed both of us to be a little more daring. Yeah. And, and, and it was, it was incredible that that conversation was happening between the two of you. And so inside organizations, we have such an opportunity to support each other's learning by having those kinds of conversations. It's also true that sometimes you're getting feedback from someone with whom you're not sure you want to have that deeper conversation, but you can take their feedback back to the people you trust and say, I just need you to be a supportive mirror first, please. And then I need you to be an honest mirror. So a supportive mirror is when you go to your friends and, Oh, can you believe it? This is what the client said that we, you know, and, and if you're a good friend, you say like, Oh yeah, they're crazy. You're great. Partly just to help you get back on your feet and to help you see it in, in perspective or in proportion. Can you, can you, can you maybe elaborate a little bit on something that I've experienced that might be that I'm just a little bit off, but nevertheless, in, I've been a consultant for 25 years. Yeah. And I, I, I can think of many organizations, including my own organization that has an aspiration to be, to have a, a culture of feedback, feedback. culture kind of company because that's associated with learning. We love it. It sounds nice. To be honest, I've simply never come across a company who pulled it off beyond the talking around the aspiration. Why is that? Why is it so that so many of us have a longing for this and we don't do it? Is it a mindset? Is it because we don't train people enough to actually understand what it is and what it, what it isn't? What's wrong? Because. What's your diagnosis or Katrina, what's your diagnosis? What do you notice? One comment at least is just talking to you about this. I think there's a, there's so many subtle, uh, nuances into this that I have to connect with and really understand. And I think there's, I think the concept has been dumped down a little bit like feedback. Boom, boom, boom. Here's the burger model or here's, you know, whatever. So, so, so, so it comes across as, as, as a, not compassionate, not, not, not, not, not invitational, but a little bit mechanistic. That, that's at least I've seen. Yes, I would agree with that. I come to think about, so, I, I know the conversation that you were talking about between you and I, which was a really difficult conversation, but it makes me think of one of the, the concepts we talked about with Fred Dust on, on, on the previous podcast, which is about committing to the conversation. Because I think what happened was that I said to you, I would like to talk about what happened to you. I had to talk about something where I had feedback about something and actually your ability to then hold that and then build on it and ask questions that took a commitment to me to explore it further. And by you doing that, then I, then I kind of responded. And I think that's the, when a conversation that's tough and feedback wise goes well, I think that's how it feels. And then if we go back to the question around our organizations, and why are they not feedback organizations, I think there's something to do with maybe not daring to go into those conversations, having too much, feeling like you've got too much to lose, um, to, to go for, go for that. Yes. Are we off? Sheila, you know more about this than we do. Come on. Tell us. No, no, no. Well, so experientially, we all actually are experts in feedback and whatever, you reflect on and think that was a really great experience. That's what we mean when each of us individually says, I wish we had more of a feedback culture. And we have a picture in our heads of what that means to us. And then we also have experiences that were really awful. And when we say, yeah, but that not that feedback culture, that's actually a more complex answer also. And, and I would say it doesn't start with your working life. Some of the most interesting conversations I've had had to do with how is feedback? How is feedback handled in your family? In what ways was it beautiful and supportive? And in what ways was it painful or destructive or unhealthy? And we're all walking into organizations, which are networks of relationships between human beings with really different backgrounds and connotations. And then as, as an organization, how do you foster healthy feedback conversations? Well, the easiest way to do it in an organization is to create a way that you're looking at. create a formal structure or some structure to remind us to do it because it also takes time, right? And we're all stretched for time. But the most meaningful conversations are often the ones that are informal, that are woven into our relationships and the work that we're doing together. But I'm on different teams all the time, so we have to constantly be rebuilding what do we mean by a healthy feedback culture among this group of people? And the approach that we've taken that has helped at least get us a little further down are just to weave in some simple practices into the daily way that we work together. Like, hey, what's one thing? What's one thing that if I changed it would be meaningful to you or would matter to you? That's a powerful question that you can ask walking down the hall after a meeting. Like, what's one thing we could change about the way we're handling this meeting? Another is just to talk in teams about what kind of feedback could you use this week? How could we support each other? What makes you feel appreciated, for instance? What are you trying to push on in terms of your learning? And then your teammates can actually help. But we have to actually remember to do it and have it woven into how we are working together day in and day out. What do you see as one of the biggest barriers in a team environment? So I'm also just thinking concretely, if I was leading a team and I could do something differently tomorrow after hearing this, kind of going there. Kind of going there. Like, what is standing in our way and what is one thing I could try? Yeah. Well, one of the things that has really helped in the teams that I'm on is for us to talk about what are some of your pet peeves about feedback? That's a really juicy conversation, right? What are some of the, what's your advice for how to offer you feedback if I have any for you? If you have conversations like that, then you're giving permission to each other. Because I think if I'm working on a team and I have some frustration, feedback often comes out of frustration, right? And I'm frustrated because you're not turning things around or when you send them to me, they're fill in the blank. When you comma, finally send them to me. I'm wondering whether you want to know. There's this funny phenomenon, which is that if you don't know what you should be working on right now, the people who know are pretty much all around you. They have a list of things that you are doing that are making it harder for them to do their job, but they're not sure you really want to know. So they're just carrying around that list. And that's why that question, what's one thing, is powerful. You'll be amazed how fast people have an answer. It's like, oh, interesting that you have an answer right away in some cases. And so that permission is part of what we're trying to offer each other. The last thing on this that I might also add is that maybe particularly when talking with clients, you want to frame it so that they know why having a feedback conversation is good for them or hearing your suggestions are good for them. So saying, hey, I've been thinking about how we're progressing, et cetera. I had a couple ideas that might speed things up, but because my impression is that you want to get there faster, but is that useful to talk about? And then they're giving permission, but they know why it would be good for them. What's in it for them if they have this feedback conversation? You don't even have to call it feedback. You just have some ideas for how you can speed it up, but the ideas often have a lot to do with what they need to do differently. As well as maybe what you're bringing to the tables. Like, I think we need to do a couple of things differently, but that would depend on you guys being able to do something differently. Let's have a conversation about that and figure out whether we can improve and strengthen our collaboration. I like that because the way it comes across to me is that before you go into the feedback, and I'm not just using the word, but before you do it, you make an invitation. Yes. There is an invitation to a conversation that might have elements of feedback, but before we even get there, something needs to happen between the two of us. We need to connect in a way where I dare to let my guards down. Yes. And you need a little bit of context as to where am I and how much can I take right now? I think that that's right. That's really interesting. And the other thing is that you're signaling that I am assuming that this is a two-way conversation. This isn't just about me giving you feedback. It's about a conversation where I'm betting that you have some ideas for me that I need to consider and maybe change. And that's a more appealing invitation also. Yes. So one of the things that I got and really enjoyed from reading Difficult Conversations was a pulling apart of feedback situations that happens to me quite a lot. Yes. And I would say it happens mostly with my husband at home. And that is me getting mad at him for giving me feedback about something. Yes. And so that's not great. I'm not proud of it. But it's a thing. But it's a thing. And I don't know where it comes from. It's just such a quick reaction. And then it's happened. But what Difficult Conversations did is that it pulled apart and has given me the possibility to step back from when I do that. Okay. Okay. I'm reacting now. But I still need to listen to what he was saying that was annoying him. And I also need to acknowledge that. And then my annoyedness can be addressed in another way if it's still relevant. But what I wanted to point out was this, you know, acknowledging that you really have to say, I heard what you said. And I recognize, oh, that must be annoying if that's what you think. So I wondered if you could say a few words about, you know, your thinking in that kind of situation where reactions are creating reactions. Oh, yeah. How do you how can one best kind of manage themselves in that situation? What is your reaction when he says you're doing this thing and it's annoying? Well, I'm doing those other great things. And yes, and and like, oh, that's really petty and small. Yes. So the problem actually is you because you're petty and you're small. And you're underappreciating me. I love you, my husband. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that was my conversation with my husband. Yeah, no, no, exactly. So, so it's me really saying, like, that is, you know, I can't believe you brought that up right now. And it's totally irrelevant and unimportant. But so point is, though, that there's something important about being able to zoom out of that situation to see the other person. But there's also an element of you. You're getting feedback on something. But you very often, I very often would tendance, have a tendency to take the feedback as a, as a feedback on me. So, so it's, it's actually I did something in that meeting, rather than you are petty or something. And I think, I think that's part of the balcony kind of position in that that you need to, disassociate yourself with if you are not what this person is giving you a feedback. Exactly. That was something from Thursday where I didn't take out the garbage or whatever. That's not me. I'm beyond, I'm, I'm bigger than taking out the garbage, hopefully. But I think immediately when we get feedback, it's so easy to take it on as if, is that the collective feedback from, for me after these 15 years? Yes. I mean. Really? Yes. Yes. 15 years all boils down to this moment where you didn't take out the garbage and you're being annoying. Yeah. Well, I think, I think it maps onto a pattern in so many of our conversations, which is that the underlying conversation that we're having is who's the good person and who's the bad person. Right? And so they're saying, I would like to have a conversation about the fact that you are the bad person here. You are annoying. And your reaction is like, no, no, no, I'm not bad. You are small and petty. I am the good person. And you are the bad person. And, and of course we don't really mean that. And that's actually a phrase that has taken root in, in my marriage, which is that it helps short circuit the conversation. One of us will eventually get frustrated and say like, why can't you just admit I am the good person and you are the bad person? And then we start laughing, but it helps us get the distance that you're talking about, which is like, of course, it's not that binary or big a deal. It's about the behavior. Or the choices that we're making. And I also, the other thing that I hear is just how hard it is sometimes to get feedback from the people we're closest to. Exactly. Yeah. And I think it has to do with that tension that I think is at the heart of feedback, which is that we do want to learn and grow and connect with people and have them feel free to tell us things that we're doing that are annoying or whatever, disappointing. We want them to be authentic and to be an authentic relationship. But we also actually want to be accepted and loved just the way we are now. And so often with the people we're closest to, we feel the same thing about them. Like, honey, I love you just the way you are. And I would love it if you would change. That's the tension. My oldest son actually gave me a beautiful example of that many years ago where he said to me, he basically, I have two younger sons, and he basically said to me, if you want to do yourself a favor, you outsource the helping of my two little brothers to someone else than you or my wife. Because he said, because he said, because he said, when you as a parent are helping with homework, there's so much else at play beyond what we're talking about. There's so much in play emotionally about we might be talking homework, but there's a bigger conversation going on. So he said, a piece of advice was find someone who can help with that, where all that doesn't come into play, and it gets to be homework conversation. And it took me a while to really understand it because I thought, I'm on it. We're talking homework. Yes. But I could think of many situations where however good my intentions were, it didn't work. He would end up crying. My intentions were good. Something. Right. You were frustrated. And it's just what, you know. Yeah. So, and those are feedback moments where you kind of, and it just made me think that it's super contagious, that, that, that, what conversation are we actually having? Yes. Yeah. So, so we should talk about the three types of feedback because they're at play in both of these conversations, I think. So, so one of the things that has really helped me, including with homework and grades conversations with my kids, is really to get clear on the three different kinds of feedback and that they have really different purposes. And sometimes in moments like this, we're in a cross transaction where I mean, they're going to be giving you one kind, but you're going to be giving you one kind, but you're hearing a different kind. So, the first is appreciation, which just says, I see and I get all the wonderful things that you do over these 15 years and in this moment. And if there's an appreciation in organizations is a big engine for engagement and motivation, etc. It's a hedge against burnout. It tells us that we're seen and valued. When there's a shortage of appreciation and someone tries to offer coaching, like, I have an idea for how you could be less annoying. Good luck, sucker. Right, exactly. It's just like, really? After all this time, that's what you have to say to me? And so, I, I'm more able to hear the coaching if I know and have a bank of feeling seen and appreciated. And then there's a relationship between, and by the way, coaching is the second type of feedback and coaching is anything designed to help you get better, learn, grow, be more effective. And that's the engine for learning in organizations, but then it bumps into the third kind of feedback, which is evaluation. And evaluation tells you how you rate or rank against a set of expectations. So, with my kids, when I would help them with homework, and in life, of course, I'm very clear that I offer my kids a ton of incredibly valuable and useful coaching, and that other people pay me a lot of money. for advice like this, and I'm giving it to you for free. But so often, what they would hear is evaluation. Do I think you're smart enough? Are you living up to expectations? Are you living up to your potential? Are you disappointing me? And they're hearing that embedded in the coaching in a way that's really totally unintentionally destructive. And this work actually changed the way we talked about grades, right? My son, my eldest son, would bring home what I call rainbow report cards. There's rainbow report cards. There's one of every grade. And we would end up getting into an argument about whether a C was an average grade. He's like, Mom, that's an average grade. And I'm like, No, it's not. That's ridiculous. Now, when they bring home report cards, we basically have a coaching conversation. And I say, What is this grade telling you you want to change about how you're approaching this subject? And so I'm basically just facilitating a coaching conversation where they're offering themselves self coaching. And then if they ask me, I can offer them a couple of ideas, but I don't know whether that will help them. They know better than I do. Right? And so that's much more of a useful, a useful conversation. But it also sounds like you got really good advice to get out of the homework game altogether, which was, was advice that actually has served me well as well. I think because they're loaded because of who you are to them and how much your approval matters. So ask for the feedback that you'd like. Yes. Know what kind you are hoping for. And also when someone asks me for feedback, that's now my automatic reaction, which is what kind of feedback would be helpful to you right now? And bring it down. Like what's one thing? Yes. So it's not necessarily, you know, the big thing. Status of, okay, 50,000 days lived. Where are we? Yes. It can be just something. Something small. Yeah. And you're also giving them the freedom to take as much risk as they want in what they offer you. Because in hierarchy, feedback is, feels risky. And so there's this funny paradox where the more and more senior you get in an organization, the bigger and bigger impact you have on everybody and everything. And the fewer and fewer people, are willing to tell you are willing to tell you about it sometimes. And so I think as you become more senior, you need more and more advanced receiving skills. And your choice to elicit or solicit feedback from others and giving them the freedom to take as much risk as they want. But you're signaling, this is how I assume we'll always be working together. We'll always be improving our collaboration and there'll always be something that we could tune up or change. And that's the fun of the joint endeavor. And that's the fun of the joint endeavor. Turns feedback into just part of the fun that we're having together as we learn how to collaborate optimally together. And that should be normal rather than, who are we going to have that conversation or not? Talking of fun. I mean, I could talk about feedback for many more hours together with you, but I'm also aware that we should maybe wrap up this conversation. And we like to wrap up the conversation with just the one thing that you're going to take away from this conversation. into the next. So, um, yeah, for me, it's probably this, uh, uh, uh, before, uh, like making the invitation and creating a connection, an emotional or compassionate connection before it starts. I mean, so there is an invitation before we do anything that that's, that's something that sits with me that if, if, if I only have a conversation, did that, that would do a lot. What sits with me, I think it will always sit with me from, from reading your books and so forth is that zooming out moment. And, and I think that's has served me well, and I'm going to take it into every conversation I go into. So when somebody is in that feedback giving moment, take a deep breath and notice my own reactions. And be able to find the gift in it. So, and what about you, Sheila? Well, I've been really reflecting on a conversation that we had earlier with Caroline Farberger and she was reflecting on the three questions that she asked herself. In her personal transformation. Yeah. She was Carl. And as Carl, she really had to ask herself, who am I? What am I going to do with this insight? And how public might I be with it? Um, and the, who am I for her was really transformational, which is, I really am a woman. And it struck me that the, the, who am I is at the heart of feedback conversations. And especially, especially when I maybe have just gotten feedback that shows me something about myself that I wasn't aware of. And I'm perhaps a bit dismayed about. Learning. And then I really have to ask myself, okay, what am I, what am I going to do with this insight? Am I willing to act on it and change something or repair something that I need to repair, for instance? And then as a leader, how public am I willing to be? And if I'm willing to be transparent about it with others, I'm much more likely to be inviting them to also be transparent. And it has more potential to transform our relationships in the way that we are willing to support each other and offer each other that kind of honest and transformational feedback. So I thought that was really cool. And I think I'm going to carry those questions with me for a while. Really cool. Thank you so much for joining us, Sheila. It's been such a pleasure. If you're interested to follow up on any of the references in this episode, follow the link in the episode description. Thanks for listening. Remember, you're never not in conversation. So stay curious out there. See you next time.