Good morning, everyone. My name is Helena, and I have the pleasure of welcoming all of you to this morning's Unpoint session, which is the fifth session in a longer series called Unlocking the Full Potential of Your Transformation. If it's not your first time dialing in to this series of events, you would maybe notice that I am a new face here. I have spent the recent years working closely together with Alexander and Casper, diving into the world of transformation management. And I'm very pleased to share the stage with these amazing guys today. It's fantastic to see that we have more than 250 signups today, and I really hope that you're sitting comfortably with your morning cup of coffee or maybe you're commuting on your way to the job. Nevertheless, hope you're ready to dive into the topic of transformation management with us. These Unpoint sessions are designed in a format to provide you with as much possible knowledge in a very short timeframe. And that also means that it will mostly be us talking. However, we really encourage you to post all your questions and your comments in the chat, because today we'll end the session with the Q&A where we'll try to cover as many of them as possible. And please, if they're not covered here, don't hesitate to reach out to us afterwards. We would love to have these discussions with you. So, as I mentioned, my name is Helena, and today I have Casper with me, which is or he is one of Implement's leading experts within transformation management. And he knows exactly how to transform strategic vision into action and value. But it won't only be the two of us today. We have brought another great colleague of ours, Troels, who besides being a really nice guy, also is an expert in change communication. He will give you a more thorough introduction to who he is later today. But I can promise you all that we are in for a treat. So, the purpose of gathering you all here today is, of course, to continue our journey on large scale transformations. And more specifically today, we're going to deep dive on the engage to change discipline of our best practice framework. So, to do so, we have three points on the agenda today. First, we'll make sure that you're all up to speed with our series and know what our framework is about. Then we'll dive into the engage to change discipline of the framework. And this is where we're going to spend the majority of our time today and where Troels will be our star on the floor. And then finally, we'll do a Q&A session in the end. So again, please do not hesitate to post your questions in the chat. As I've said a couple of times now, today is part of a series, Unlocking the Full Potential of Your Transformation. And if you missed the first four events, you can still catch up. Together with the slides that we're presenting today, with the recording as well, we will share recordings of all the previous events so that you can watch them. Good. I think that was enough with the introduction. So let's get into it. And it's no secret that designing, steering and executing large scale transformations is extremely difficult because of the high level of complexity. However, here in Implement, we have almost 30 years of experience working with transformations across all industries and different parts of the world. And that has taught us that we, in fact, can increase our chance of success. If we put it down to a very condensed format, it comes down to three main things. So to succeed or increase the chance of succeeding with our large scale transformation, the first thing we need to do is increase impact. And we do this by reducing our time to benefit realization. We do this by being clear on our vision and by lowering our risk. The second thing we need to focus on is speeding up progress. And we do this through efficient execution, increased agility and improved coordination and collaboration across the transformation. And then lastly, we need to focus on strengthening engagement. And here we focus on faster adoption through change communication and change management, leading to higher stakeholder satisfaction, stronger ownership and motivation. And all of this, how we actually strengthen our engagement is what we're going to look into today. So of course, these three elements is also what formed the core of our best practice framework for how to succeed with these large and difficult large scale transformations. Here in Implement, we call it TPM. And it's designed to help you ensure that your transformation is designed to create high impact, that the program is set up to continuously drive progress, and that the receiving organization is engaged to change. Because far too often when we're out at our clients, we see that, okay, the target remains undefined. There may be an overestimation or an increased focus on the execution capabilities, and the changing organization is forgotten. And our experience here at Implement shows us that to truly succeed with these transformations, these three elements must work together in an ecosystem. Of course, while they're being steered by strong leadership and facilitated by an effective TMO or transformation management office. If we go a bit deeper into the framework, each of these three disciplines have three underlying objectives, and they function as high level roadmaps for the concrete practices. So if we start with the built for high impact dimension, this is all about steering the transformation. It's the foundation for a transformation. And we often convey that programs, they don't just go wrong, but they actually start wrong. Therefore, it's very important that we invest energy and effort in creating a clear and compelling program vision that everyone in the transformation can subscribe to from the beginning. Then we need to have clearly defined scope with desired benefits and a plan of how to get there. And then afterwards, of course, we also need to design and establish the organization and staff it with the required capabilities to deliver on what's going on. What the transformation is set out to deliver. So build for high impact is the foundation. If we go into drive progress, which is more about directing the execution, this is the execution engine of our transformation. To ensure that our transformation drives progress, we need to have a strong governance setup and it needs to be across all levels of the transformation. Because this is what enables fast decision making and an effective and efficient information flow up and down in the organization. Then we also need to establish an effective TMO or transformation management office, as I said before, because this is what facilitates rhythm. This is the heartbeat of the transformation. And it does through the meeting cadence, the controls environment and the collaboration project practices that goes across all the projects in the transformation. And that, of course, leads us to our final one, which is about delivering projects with impact. We need to have a streamlined project management approach across all the projects because this is what enables one source of truth reporting and data aggregation. Again, helping efficient decision making and information flow up and down. So drive progress is everything about the execution of the engine driving our transformation forward. Then we have the final dimension, which is engaged change, which is all about transforming the organization. And here we need to involve all stakeholders with engaging change management. Of course, a compelling communication early on in the transformation and continue throughout the entire transformation. We also need to equip the leaders to drive and to own the change. And of course, also engage their affected employees. And finally, we need to assess what are the current capabilities that we have. We need to define the future capabilities that are required and build the capabilities to bridge the gap in between the two. Because this is what enables us to actually realize and sustain the benefits that the transformation is set out to deliver. So fulfilling all of these objectives ensures that your transformation is set up for success. So to this, it's also important to mention that it's not a one time exercise. Like the environment around it, our transformation will also evolve with time. And therefore, we need to adapt our approach over time and revisit it regularly and work actively with the framework throughout the entire transformation. If we take another step out or unfold the framework even further, it contains concrete methods applied to fulfill the given objectives. So they serve more as how-to guides for the specific objectives. For instance, if we take the vision and aspiration, it's all about defining the high-level target picture and defining the desired impact of the transformation. Lastly, if we take the final level of the framework, it contains a comprehensive range of concrete tools and templates that supports the methods to fulfill the objectives. So our framework is a very comprehensive framework. Before we dive into the engage or change discipline, we'll just take a quick look at how we support or how we typically support clients across the transformation cycle lifecycle. And we do so through the entire lifecycle of the transformation. We help with program initiation and ramp up. We help establish and drive PMOs. We help manage and support program execution. Then we have our X-ray, which we have a separate event on. Then we have, we do course correction and improvement offices. And of course, also build the transformation capabilities throughout and way more. With that said, I think we are ready to dive into the engage to change discipline, which is the main topic of today. So now I'll give the mic to Caspar. And yeah, see you later. Thank you so much for that, Helena. I'm so excited to be here once more. And I really do hope that the people that have joined in before are not too tired of me yet. Otherwise, you can let me know in the chat and we'll take it from there. Because now we start focusing on the part of transformation management that ultimately determines whether the expected benefits even show up in reality, whether people actually adopt the change that we want. And as Helena just introduced, the engage to change is all about building the ownership in the receiving organization so that the transformation is not something that a program does, but something that the organization actually takes on, lives and sustains in the future. And the connection between the two, between the transformation output and the new behavior that we actually want, needs to be developed deliverably and very early in the process. So not after the solution is designed, not two weeks before go live, but from the start and all the way through. And with that in context, let me start with the typical challenges that we see when the people side of these transformation is under prioritized. Because we do see a consistent pattern amongst unsuccessful transformation. They tend to leave impact and change in the dark in the push to show progress to management. And the critical point here is that the consequences of that tendency compound over the lifetime of programs. In programs where change management and change in general, the dimension is left in the shadow. We typically see that change is not embedded from the start. It is treated as a separate work stream or something that we just add on later instead of being built into the core of how we actually run the program. And the result is that the plans move faster than the people's ability to actually adopt to these plans. We also see that the stakeholder needs and the impacts are not actively accounted for. We designed the solutions, but we don't build a clear picture of who is affected, what will change in their day to day, and what support they actually need to succeed in the future. This means that we optimize the program plan, but we miss the reality of our people in the organization. A shared feeling of belonging never forms in this type of program. People might understand what the program is, but they do not feel ownership of the program. This means that the energy stays local and fragmented, and the execution becomes dependent on a few enthusiasts at the top of the program. And transformation programs are wrong for a long time, and they do matter a lot because they actually determine the future of organizations. So we should be building pride and identity around being actually part of these. We also see that resistance gets surfaced too late. The signals are there early with uncertainty, competing priorities, and also frustration. But without regular pulse checks, structured communication, and active engaged leaders, it becomes only visible when adoption stalls or when decision gets blocked along the way. And finally, we also see that capabilities are not built in time. People are expected to change behaviors, create new ways of working, but without training and without coaching and clear roles and leadership routines that actually reinforce this new state, it becomes very difficult. And in this way, the adoption becomes fragile, the organization falls back to old habits when the pressure actually hits. Yeah. And when we see that the change efforts are prioritized and carried out, it is often too little and too late. Because let me put it bluntly, like also Helena indicated, transformation programs does not just go wrong, they actually start wrong. Most often, the issues that we end up firefighting in the end of programs start with small sparks in the beginning when we set up the program without treating change as a first class priority, alongside with the impact and progress like Helena just explained. And if change is treated as something that we add on later, then we start the program on a structural blind spot. We build the plans, we set up the governance, we create the scope and all of the solutions, but we do not build the capabilities to actually adopt the change at the same pace. So the message here is very, very simple. If you want the benefits in the end, change must be a priority from the start and not as a rescue operation in the end. And if you actually aim to succeed with this aspect, which I expect you do, a useful way to think about the change dimension is that it runs throughout the whole program lifecycle, but that it has two different jobs depending on where you are in this lifecycle. First, in the early stages of the program lifecycle during the planning and the execution and the establishment, you build the foundation. And this is where you create the condition for the adoption before the execution starts moving things along very fast. For instance, aligning leaders around a clear core story, which we will hear from from Trolls in a minute, getting a practical view on impacts and change readiness, as well as setting up the engagement and capabilities plan so that it is signed from the beginning and not just improvised later. Then doing the actual execution, you manage and drive the change actively. Here, the work becomes a disciplined cadence and not just a one off. You keep the communication alive, you involve stakeholders, you track adoption signals, and you also track the benefits that you want and you build the capabilities as the program progresses so that the organization actually sustains these new ways of working that you try to implement. And this means that the change efforts are established as recurring activities and not just like done once. Once you actually run these, you need to see them as disciplines like schedule, risk and delivery and run them in the same very structured manner. And unfortunately, we don't have time to cover the entire set of all activities and details. And therefore, we have chosen to focus our efforts. And in our next session in April, we'll zoom in on specifically the capability building part of the change journey. And here we'll go over what it takes to actually conduct accurate capabilities assessment and what you do in order to actually establish the engaging learning journey so you can adopt these changes. But this morning, you are in for real treat. Because I have managed to convince one of our leading experts in change communication to take us through the practical methods, concrete examples from real life transformation he has been a part of. So, Troels, over to you. Thank you, Kasper. And thank you, Helena, for inviting me. It's a true pleasure to get the chance to talk to you out there behind your screens. I hope you have a good morning. My name is Troels and I'm an engagement manager here at Implement. I'm part of our change communication practice. And I've been here at Implement since 2017. I have a master from Copenhagen Business School in organizational communication. But I actually started my professional career in the branding advertising communication agency world. And a lot of us in change communication here in Implement come from that background. Because change communication started in Implement with that founding belief that actually treating employees just as professionally and taking them as serious as many companies take their customers in the way they communicate to customers was actually key in making an organization and employees engaged in a transformation. And that's basically what we do. We basically apply this strategic communication toolbox, but in an internal context to engage the receivers, the leaders and the employees of the organization. And what we have seen is that there's a big need for that. Because what you see here is actually the big issue that we are trying to solve. Change often break down because leaders and the management behind the change is failing to actually communicate well to the receiving organization, the other leaders and the employees. And, but they still expect them to follow suit. So what happens? We typically have this situation that a management behind a big transformation or change have had discussions for a long time, trying to design exactly what the transformation is going to look like. What are the benefits we are chasing and through that process, the management team behind the change have become very excited about what they are about to embark on. The problem is employees too often has been left in the dark, not involved in the initial phases. And hence when the management go out and say typically in a big town hall, now it's going to be exciting. The employees stand there and say, well, maybe, but before you have told us why, what it's going to take and what you expect from me, how are we going to do it? And when the key milestones are, it's going to be without us. Because how can you expect them to follow you if you haven't engaged them? And the bad news is that this gap you see here, we actually see that it's widening. It keeps growing and it keeps widening. We in change communication, we conduct a bi-annual x-ray survey where we take the temperature on exactly this issue. So that we take the temperature on the state of change communication in organizations. And one of the key questions we have kept asking ever since we started back in 2022 is both to leaders and employees. How satisfied are you with the change communication in your organization? If you remember the last large transformation that you had. And what happens is that leaders tend to score the satisfaction much higher than the employees. Maybe not surprising since the leaders and the management is often the ones behind the communication. But what we see is from these results is that the difference between how satisfied leaders are and how satisfied employees are is growing. Back in 2022, the gap was only 13%. But as you can see here, that gap has grown over the years. And our latest x-ray showed that this gap is now on 30%. So this shows that the gap is widening. So what causes this? Of course, in our latest x-ray, we had a big special focus on the role of AI. And it's clear that when employees are seeking authentic, empathetic communication from leaders where they really show that they have understood what the employees are concerned about. Then when we see leaders increasingly using AI as the nice quick fix to communication, those key elements are further or increasingly not there. And that is actually what employees are asking for. But besides AI, which you can read much more about in our latest x-ray survey, which we will make sure to also share with you. What might be some of the other reasons for this gap? And when we ask the employees what they see as the main reasons for the poor change communication they have experienced, they point to these top five reasons. The biggest reason is that 44% says when management struggle to create a room for dialogue. It's often one way, there's not a room or events or methods that can facilitate a two-way dialogue. That's the biggest reason for poor change communication. The second biggest reason is that employees are unsure what is expected of them and how they can actually contribute. So the communication fails to really address that because employees want to contribute. They want to be involved. But if we fail to tell them how to, it's one of the key reasons that employees judge poor change communication. The third biggest reason, 40% point to that the purpose and the goals of the transformation itself is unclear. We simply forget to communicate what it's all about. The fourth biggest reason is a general lack of communication. Like there's simply very little communication, which leaves the receiving organization left a little bit in the dark, uncertain and it creates a little misalignment because there's not a clear guiding star about what we are actually chasing and ongoing communication and how we do it. And this last reason is that there is a low understanding how change will impact me. It's often communicated how it will change the organization or all the nice benefits we're going to have, but it fails to address the honest conversation and consequences it might have for different people impact. So the bad news is this gap is growing due to many of these challenges reinforced by AI if we are not able to use it in an authentic way. But the good news is that transformations and big projects that are able to address these, they have a good chance of making change communication both effective and engaging. And we know when that happens, communication is a key value driver in transformations. According to Project Management Institute, transformations or large scale projects that have effective and engaging communication, they succeed 80% of the time. And this is in stark contrast to another number we often talk about here in Implement, the number that between 20 and 30% of all projects you see, that's a very low number. And this is 80%. And there might not be 100% correlation between these two numbers. But I still think it's safe to say that there is a very strong case for using and investing in change communication in big transformations because it is a key value driver of transformations. All right. So we believe that change communication is this missing link, is this bridge that can help close the gap between management behind the change and the receiving organizations, the other leaders and the employees that the management expects to change. But how do we go about it in practice? We saw a lot of elements listed in the beginning that Casper listed, but for now, we're going to try and keep it real simple. Basically, we need two things. We need a strong, compelling core story. And it's a story that has to engage the minds and the hearts. So we need to find the right balance of emotionality and rationality. And we need a clear engagement plan that is aligned with the program roadmap and that kind of ties everything together and deliberately lays out a plan for how we're going to take all our stakeholders and move them along our change journey, along the change curve to actual behavioral change so the transformation actually happens. So if we do this well, a good core story and a good engagement plan will kind of set the whole direction and create a shared language for the transformation. Meaning that no matter what level you are in the organization, you know what this is about. You know how we talk about this. And that should light the way, kind of the highway to the overall aspiration and vision of the project. Of course, there will be, as Casper also alluded to, and Helena, course correction along the way as we need to adapt to the environment around us. But the guiding star should shine bright at the end. And that's what a good core story can help us do. Okay. Now let's be very practical about how we actually start with this. We need to start with co-creating the core story. And as we saw in Casper's intro, it's pivotal that this process starts early in the planning and establishment phase. It's by the way, at the same time as we are defining the overall aspiration, the benefits we want to achieve, the impact case, when we design the program roadmap, when we map our stakeholders and assess their change readiness. That's the same time you need to start working on co-creating a core story. Because a core story needs to be co -created if it has to have any effect. If it's just developed by a consultant in isolation in a meeting room, it's going to have very limited impact. So, exactly how you weave this process that I'm going to go through now into your establishment phase, there's different ways to do that. The most important thing is that you go through these steps. So, what are the steps we need to go through? First, we need real insights about the people who are affected by the change. To bridge this gap, we need to understand what are the motivational drivers and what are the barriers and concerns from the people we expect to change. We need to understand that because we need to build our communication based on that. To be very concrete, how we often do this is typically by a range of interviews, both with the management behind the change to understand their motivations, but more importantly, with interviews from employees and leaders representing the receiving organization. To understand exactly that, what motivates them, what are their fears and concerns, and how might we overcome that with good communication and a good plan and change management throughout. Sometimes, we are lucky in these big transformations to do a more anthropological studies of this, where we can go more into qualitative depth with actually the human factors behind it. And that leads to even better change communication. Once we have gathered all our insights, we of course, synthesize them and try to look at patterns across. And then, we typically arrange a list of hypotheses. And then, we have our first workshop, where we need key people behind the change and definitely also the project team in the same room to kind of go over and discuss these insights. Because this is where we need to make choices about how we address these concerns, how we address the motivational drivers. And it might be an uncomfortable situation, because we need to make tough choices of how honest, how transparent we want to be. So, this is key to kind of set the corner flags for our communication, the key messages we want to communicate. So, that's what comes out of this first workshop here in the sense making process. We will have our raw message structure in place at this point. But then, to create, from having logical and right messages, we need to turn it into a story. Because we need a story to engage the hearts and the minds of people. We know that stories is the most impactful way to put new ideas into the world. So, we need to find out what is that creative hook? What is that concept? What is that phrase that we can build our story on that resonates with the insights, that resonates with the organization? And that's where we typically go into prototyping. So, we typically explore two to three creative hooks or various topics. Or various directions to kind of test what is the jargon, what is the language that resonates best here. And then, we meet again with the key stakeholders and the project team to kind of test which of these prototypes has the right hook, has the right story that really encapsulates what we are trying to achieve with this transformation. And what typically happens is that there is a clear favorite among the three prototypes. But there are some elements from the other two that we need to include and some things we need to take out. Then, we draft one final prototype. But before we kind of go on from there, we sense-check one more time with the key stakeholders and, not least, the representatives of the receiving organization. If this story actually works and resonates. When that is in place, we have our final core story. And we are kind of ready. We have a strong foundation because we have made sure that it resonates with the organization and that it's owned by the key management people and project team behind the change. That's a very strong foundation to continue the communication planning and the engagement planning. So, some of you might, before we go to the engagement plan a little bit in the end, we are going to stay with the core story. Because you might wonder what it actually looks like. So, to be super concrete, when we come out of this process, we will have typically half a page prose written story that kind of tells the why, what, how and who and when of the transformation in a short format that is compelling and engaging. We will also have our key message structure that makes it easy and logical to know what to communicate when. And we will also have that broken down for the overall messages, but also what are the key messages per target group effected by the transformation. And then, very often, our first starting point with actual communication materials is to translate all this into an actual movie. Because we know films and movies are the one single most impactful media to actually convey the right balance between emotions and rationality and ambitions that we have. And we know there are some characteristics that define when a great core story will actually have impact. So, you can see these as aspirational design principles or as a checklist for when you work with this. The first one we talked a lot about is to make sure that the core story is owned. It cannot just be detached and made in isolation by the project team or a consultant. It needs to have the key people behind the change engaged in owning it. Because otherwise it will not be used, it will not work. Then we need to make sure that it's simple and not complex. And it might sound obvious, but what very often happens is that the big transformation is complex. There's a lot of elements, but we cannot have that complexity go into the story. The core story itself needs to be super crisp, super simple. And yes, then we will have a chance to explain all the upper device, all the special cases to all the different target groups later. But the core story that needs to work for everyone needs to be super simple and crisp. Then it needs to be honest and not biased. That's what we talked about in the beginning, that we need to talk, that we need to address the elephants in the room. And that's what happens in this, the hypothesis workshop. We need to make sure that we are honest and transparent because the organization, they will smell it if we are just trying to, pardon my friends, corporate bullshit them. Then it needs to be motivational and not overly rational. So really focus on how do we make this engaging and emotional, because for sure we will remember the rational things of the business side of here. So lean more towards the emotional side. And lastly, it should be original and not generic. So try and find some ways to make it original and authentic. Okay. Let's move on to a very concrete example that I believe embodies these characteristics. It's an only but goody. But in our business, it can sometimes be a little difficult to show cases because of confidentiality. So that's why we have found an only but goody. It's from Dong Energy before it became Ørsted. And it kind of marks the transition from being state owned to going more into the private market. Meaning that suddenly these people, the employees and the leaders in Dong suddenly needed to compete on the free market. It's a big transformation, especially a mindset transformation. So how do you start that? How do you kickstart that? And we try to tap into both the fears and the motivations with this movie. Let's have a look. I have a question for you. What do we know about competition? What does a company like ours that's been growing on subsidies actually know about competition? Well, I'll tell you. We know more about competition than most. It is the hardest people that do what we do. Isn't fighting against Mother Nature in these tough environmental conditions the highest form of competition you can think of? Far from land, in the middle of the ocean? This is what we do. This is who we are. This is our story. And now we are the market leader. The company that everybody wants to beat. But just as we were never afraid of facing the forces of Mother Nature, we're not afraid of facing competition. On the contrary, we welcome our competitors. The past has been fun. The future will be even more fun. So I've only one thing to say to all of you. Never stop competing. Our new strategy has only three words. Compete to win. Compete to win. Compete to win. So this was a concrete example and I will let you be the judge of how well we address the characteristics we talked about. But a core story and a core story film is only the beginning. You could say the opening shot of a big race. What follows is the entire transformation journey. And many of you will probably know the management, change management framework of ADCAR. Basically describing the different phases we need to go through. From awareness to desire to building knowledge and ability to reinforcing the new behavior. And the core story should be reflected in all the engagement activities you design along the journey. And here are some examples of what that could look like. Of course it needs to speak fully together with the entire program roadmap. But basically the engagement plan, which we won't have too much time to talk about today, will have to embody the essence of the core story throughout. We don't have more time to talk about this today. But if you want, please switch out. We are very happy to talk more about this. And we also have a more detailed seven step model for change communication. And further insights that we can share with you. But Helene, that's what I had for our agreed time slot here. Yes. Thank you Truls so much for sharing your insights. So now I would like to invite you to maybe a more comfortable setting over here. Where we will go into the last point of the agenda, which will be the Q&A. Yep. Hi again. Now in a new setting, a more comfortable setting. Now we've been talking a lot and we've had the theoretical perspective on the engage to change dimension. So now we'll maybe try to take on the practical view. And now it's the Q&A. So please, if you're dialing in from home, please post your questions. This is where we'll try to cover some of them. But before diving into the chat, I have a question that we can maybe start off with. So now we've talked a lot about the importance of prioritizing change and we have the data supporting it. But why do you think it's so difficult doing it in practice, doing it in the transformations? Maybe, Truls, you can start. Yeah. I think there are many reasons for that. Of course, it's one. But I think actually the biggest reason is that you are too often too late thinking about this. That's why you don't have the time. So I think the first thing you need to do is to really remember that this, as Casper said in the beginning, bring it in early. Because then you will have the time because you need to do all the other things like making the impact case and designing the roadmap. So if you bring it in early, you will have enough time. Of course, then if you don't, how can you do it in a short time if you start late? And I think the most important thing is to, that number one thing you need to do is to get insights from the receiving organization. And you can quickly get that by setting up some interviews just for the representatives, just to have a better feel of what's happening. And then provide, be honest in your open conversations that we are just starting now. We will make sure to design some opportunities for the two-way dialogue as we talked about. So even if you start late, you can still repair a lot of things. But the best way is to start early. Yeah. And I think there's also something in the assumption of that question being that you need to prioritize it, that we are trying to change with the TPM. Because as you introduced in the beginning, we have the three dimensions that we believe are equally as important. So it should not be a question of prioritization. It should be included just as we include schedule management and cost management and all of this. It should also be a natural way of a transformation that you actually include communication and not something that you add on on the side. So these needs to be, like we need to change the mindset of how we actually think about transformation. That it's not only money and time and quality, but there's also something in the way that we engage our people in transformations. Cool. And now I see they start being active in the chat. So I'll try to grab one of the questions from the chat. This is a longer one, but I'll try to make it short. So creating engagement for change is easier in your vertical organization because we typically have some power to influence what we talked about. However, more often than not, we also depend on creating engagement on the horizon or on the horizontal level in the organization to succeed with our strategies. So here he's asking, do we have any tips or tricks to create engagement for change horizontally and not only vertically? Maybe you have some perspectives on that? Yeah. It depends, of course, on the project. But if it's a cross-functional transformation, then I hope there will be some kind of project team or steering group above that consists of representatives from the different verticals. And there at least you will have a forum to align these efforts and to align leaders across functions to go out with the same story, the same signals, the same plan. Of course, if it's a vertical, a transformation in the vertical and you are dependent on people from other teams, it's of course more tricky. So there I would, as a leader, I would try to leverage my leadership colleagues and try and connect with those interfaces and those stakeholders to kind of align and get a shared case for change because it might also affect the other function, right? Yeah. What if you have or if you meet resistance trying to do so when you have tried to have that horizontal connection? Yeah. Do you have any perspective there, Caspar? While I can think of maybe? Yeah. Yeah. But I think that then there's something back to the whole core story that you're also thinking about because then there is something in the why that is not clear for the people. And of course, there might be a reason why some parts of the organization is not included. And then I think that that in this case, of course, you need to cater to what is then important for that part of the organization that is then excluded from the structure of the program. Because I think that some of this is also back to what you also alluding to a bit. It's the way that the program is structured, not so much a communication issue. So there's something about that you have actually managed and mapped all of the stakeholders that are involved and might have a stake in this. So you're setting up a cross-functional transformation because that was also almost always be the way that we would advise people to set up the transformation that we actually include on the horizontal dimension and not only a vertical. I can see that the time is flying away. So we have a lot of questions in the chat, but we'll try to get back to you afterwards or reach out to you afterwards. So I think there's not much more to say other than thank you so much, Tuls. And thank you so much, Casper, for being here today. And of course, thank you to all of you dialing in from home. This is not the final session that we will have in our series, Unlocking the Full Potential of Your Transformation. We have a session focusing on capability building coming up in April. And we really hope to see more many of you again there. So thank you so much and have a great Wednesday and enjoy the lovely weather.