In the world, we can get a conversation with other people, we almost never remember what they said, but it's very easy to remember how they made us feel. Welcome to Changing Conversations, the podcast that brings you perspectives on how to harness the power of conversations to make meaningful change happen. How can you build a stronger connection with others while in conversation? Today's guest Charles Duhigg will help us explore this question and bring several practical examples of the things you can do to build a deeper level of connection with those around you. You might recognize Charles Duhigg's name. He is a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter and a bestselling author of the books, The Power of Habit, Smarter, Faster, Better, and most recently, Super Communicators, How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. In this episode, we'll discuss three categories of conversations and the importance of matching those conversations to build more connection. And we'll also talk about the types of questions that can bring us more depth in our conversations and relationships with others. It was a lot of fun to speak with Charles. So please enjoy our conversation. Welcome, Charles Duhigg. Thank you so much for having me. This is such a treat. We are super happy to have you here. And what you've been spending the last few years working on is close to our hearts. You've written a book called Super Communicators, which is essentially all about how you get great at being in conversation. So, I mean, that's a good starting point. And so we wanted to open up maybe by just inviting you to tell us a little about Super Communicators and in particular the three conversations that you came across or that you landed on in your book. Yeah. And then I'd love to ask you guys how you see this manifest in the work that you do. For me, this book started a couple of years ago when I got into this bad pattern with my wife, which is I would come home from work and I'm assuming this is probably going to be familiar to you and to anyone listening. No. No. No. It's always no problems with life ever. I would come home from work after a long day and I'd start complaining about my day. I'd talk about, you know, my boss doesn't appreciate me and my coworkers don't recognize what a genius I am. And she would give me this very good advice. She would say something like, why don't you take your boss out to lunch and you guys can get to know each other a little bit better. And instead of being able to hear what she was saying, I would get even more upset. And I would say, you're supposed to be on my side. Why aren't you supporting me? And then she would get upset. Does this ever happen to you guys that one person tries to solve the problem? A hundred percent. Yeah. Maybe not you, Steve, but a hundred percent. Steve never had this problem. You're always in the right conversation at the right time. Well, so, so I tried to figure out why did this happen? Because I know it happens to everyone. Right. And I went to these, these researchers and I asked them what's going on. And they said, well, we're actually learning a lot about how our brain behaves during the conversation. And one of the things we've learned is that when we're having a discussion, we tend to assume that the discussion is about one thing. It's about our day or it's about a client who has a problem, but actually every discussion is made up of multiple kinds of conversations. And in general, those conversations tend to fall into one of three buckets. There are these practical conversations where we're solving problems together. We're making plans. But then there's emotional conversations where I tell you what I'm feeling and I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize. And then finally, there's social conversations, which is about how we relate to each other in society, the social identities that are important to us. And if we're not having the same kind of conversation at the same moment, it's very hard for us to hear each other. It's very hard for us to feel connected to each other. And in psychology, this has actually become known as the matching principle that we should identify what kind of conversation is happening. We should match the other person or invite them to match us. And then we can move from conversation to conversation together. It was so interesting to read this when you had sort of laid this out in your book and then thinking back to some conversations that you and I have had, Stee, where we talk about how in organizations you'll attend meetings where the agenda has been set beforehand and it's stationary. And that's what we're going to talk about. And in some cases, people sit around a table just kind of going through the motions of, you know, what we're meant to talk about, but with no energy, with no relevance, with no actually thinking about, is this the most important conversation that we should be having at this time? And so we started, you know, exploring with that question. And I remember, Stee, maybe you can just say a few words about that. And Mass Nipper told us about a board conversation, I think it was, that they'd had where they just didn't do the fixed agenda thing. Do you remember that? I think he basically sensed as the CEO that, hey, we need to have a different conversation and they needed an existential conversation around their business model, really. So he had the courage to, for a full day, put all the slides away and basically shape a super courageous conversation where they would be, you could say, curious on some of the basic assumptions that underpinned what they were doing. And everybody, of course, felt super uncomfortable because where was the pre-read? Where is this heading? All of that. So I think that was a good example of actually from the get-go asking oneself, what is the conversation we should have? Yeah. And I think it's something, very often, no one has the courage to ask that question because what if they point to a conversation that I haven't prepared? Exactly. And all I can think about is how can I mess this up rather than, let me ask you a question because I imagine a number of clients come to you because they want to have a different kind of conversation. They need your help changing the conversation. When you're in, when you're working with a client and it's clear they need to have an emotional conversation or they need to have a social conversation and they're stuck in the practical mindset. Yes. How do you help them recognize they need to have a different conversation, that they want to have a different conversation? Maybe two perspectives on it. I think one is actually very rarely is the starting point we need to have a different conversation. But most often it's a practical problem of something that is not optimal. And then what we try to add to it is to ask ourselves, so what is the conversation that's broken? So which lens do we need to look through to identify the actual conversation that might be the root cause of something is not happening? So that's maybe the most important thing, I think. And then my own experience is that the most powerful thing you can do is actually to show how the conversation could manifest if we dared to do it. Absolutely. And the beauty about that is that most people realize, yeah, we can actually do that. So it's not this, oops, we can't do that without your help. No, we could, but we just didn't have a language for it. That's it. And it's interesting because the thing you mentioned, right, the thing that stops us often from doing that is the fear. Yes. It's not that the conversation is actually hard. It's our fear that the conversation is going to be hard. Our fear that I'm going to say the wrong thing. I'm going to be unprepared. I'll say something that I'll regret later. Yes. And what we find, though, is that the best conversations are conversations that are messy. Yes. Because when it's messy, it's real. I agree. And if I go in thinking my goal in this conversation is to impress you or to get you to agree with me or to make you think I'm smart, it's not going to be a great conversation. If I go in and I say my goal is just to understand how you see the world and to speak in such a way that you can understand how I see the world, then that conversation is going to be much more messy and much more productive. There's an example that comes to mind here or a case where that is so prevalent. And whether it's a consultant talking to a client or a leader talking to, you know, a different part of the organization. And that's when we talk about pitching ideas or starting a new project. And the kind of awkward setup in the sense that we want to have a real conversation about what's going on here. And we want to ask you questions. But we also want to look good and like we know what we're doing and like we're smart. So, you know, and I think at least the classical model of at least consulting in a stereotypical way is, you know, we come in here and we tell you we know all the answers and it's going to be really great. And look, the plans right there and it's all good. But in reality, in the types of complex projects and situations that we find ourselves in now, actually, we need to have those kind of project or selling conversations in a different way where we're actually talking about, you know, this is how I see it. But, you know, fill in the gaps. What don't I see? And having some humility. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. How does that play? Do you recognize this, Steve? Yeah. And I think it actually points to, I think we did some research a couple of years ago on what are people longing for more of in their workplace when it comes to conversations. As I recall it, they say two things. They say courage and courage more specifically to talk about what we actually ought to talk about, not the thing right next to it. And then it was curiosity, I think. Yeah. This thing about actually entering to your point, entering the conversation with this feeling of what is it that I don't get here? That level of the other person is wise and clever. What is it that I don't see? And what's interesting about what you just said is that when you mentioned essentially two emotions, right? Courage, which we think, which manifests in an emotional way. And curiosity, which actually is an emotion, right? It's a feeling that we have that I'm curious. And what the research tells us is that when we have a conversation with other people, we almost never remember what they said. We don't remember the words they use. We might remember an idea or two, but it's hard to remember what someone said. But it's very easy to remember how they made us feel. So if I go into a conversation and you're humble and it makes me feel like I can be curious or I can be courageous, or if I'm courageous and you reward that by reciprocating and saying, thank you so much for saying that. Then what I remember about that conversation is I felt good in that conversation. And that, of course, is what we're always going for for any conversation, whether we're trying to pitch a new client or we're trying to help a client become a better version of themselves and understand our advice. Can I go back to your three conversations, the practical, the emotional, and the social? I was just thinking when you, and it's probably just me not getting it, but isn't it so that there is an element of all in any conversation really? Absolutely. So it's actually three lenses where I have to have an awareness of what is actually the practicality of this, what is the social part, and what is the emotional part of this so I don't fall into the trap of I define this as this conversation and here we go. That's exactly, that's a great point, and it's really important. Every discussion has all three conversations in it. Okay. Now what matters is are we having the same kind of conversation at the same moment? So if you say something emotional, and that could be something as similar, as simple as saying like, I'm a little worried about next week, right? I'm worried about the budget. If I treat that like a practical conversation and I just launch into like, here's the spreadsheet, we won't feel connected. But if I say, you know, I understand that anxiety, I'm worried too. And I think the best way for us to manage that worry is to try and get this budget in place. Let's move to the practical together, essentially. When we move together, once we're aligned, we very naturally move through those conversations together. But you're exactly right. Every conversation has all three of those. So I need to, as a leader or as a partner in conversation, I need to have a sensitivity for whatever you say. What wavelength are you sending on? Is it actually a practical thing? Or do I sense that there is an emotional side to what you're saying? So it's actually, I need to have a fairly good granular sensitivity for what is going on. I need to listen, not just to what you let your words, but listen to you with my whole body. That's exactly right. And the nice thing is our brains have actually evolved to be very good at this, right? Communication is Homo sapiens superpower. And so our brains have evolved to be really good at picking up on those clues once we know to look for them. Not all brains. Not all brains. My brain sometimes, especially with my wife, my brain sometimes falls down on the job. But I think you're exactly right that as a leader, one of the things we can do is we can listen really closely and also we can ask questions. We can ask what are known as deep questions, questions that invite someone to talk about their values and beliefs and experiences because that will reveal what kind of mindset they're in. And when we ask those deep questions, oftentimes people signal to us what kind of conversation they want to have. When we come in to talk about the budget, if we start that as a leader by saying, before we talk about the numbers, let's just talk about how we're feeling about this. Like, are you worried? Are you not worried? Like, what does this budget mean to you? Some people are going to say, oh, the budget looks good. It all adds up. And some people are going to say, I'm really anxious. Yes. Because if we don't hit these numbers, we're going to have to do layoffs. And I don't want to do that. So it makes me think of a situation where I've been leading a project and I felt like every single conversation we're going into was in the practical sphere. And there was a short deadline. It was high stakes. You know, so it's, you know, there's a lot at play here. And I felt super uncomfortable, even though I kind of knew we had to talk about the, we needed to have the emotional conversation. Because, you know, there were a lot of fears because there's a lot of, as I said, there's a lot at stake. So even though it's tempting to just fly on and go fast, it was time to do like a check-in and say, okay, everyone, we're going to do a round where we're just going to do what's the version of you and what does your nervous system need right now? Yeah. And we did that round. But I think what I wanted to point to is that it's not easy or comfortable to invite for potentially a deeper conversation. Absolutely. And I'm curious how you guys confront this because what the leader does matters so much. If I'm a leader and I start a conversation by saying, before we get into the practicalities, I want to tell you how I'm feeling. I'm feeling anxious. I'm feeling like our back is against the wall, but I feel optimistic like we can do it. It gives others permission to talk about their feelings, but we have to do it ourselves first as the leader. We have to model what we're looking for. And Steve, let me ask you, because as an executive yourself and someone who leads this big company, how do you encourage that? Like, what do you do to help people feel comfortable to have those non-practical conversations? I don't think I'm a big genius in that space, but I think a couple of things. First of all, I think we as leaders, we need to think about that it's us that needs to make the right invitation. So the type of invitation and the shape of that invitation is so critical. So the whole feel of the meeting has to be right for me. I really, I'm super sensitive if it feels stiff and tight and not soft and flowy. So I would find ways to ease it up. Yeah. Like what's an example? What's it could be saying something funny, making people laugh, do something odd that kind of tricks it a little bit off this set piece kind of feel. So that is one thing. But then also I think there is a contextual element to it because sometimes you're with clients or leaders that are so uncomfortable in this space and you just have to sense where they are. So in some organizations you can break a meeting up after an hour and say, okay, let's do 10 pushups just to do something that does something to the space. In other situations it's just way off. Yeah. So I think it's actually an art in itself to sense where is this group? And if you're off, then the conversation also gets off. Well, and you said something I think is really important. You said invitation, that you invite people. And this is an important distinction is the difference between inviting people and mandating. Yes. You're exactly right. If I'm in a stiff formal meeting and I say, let's all do 10 pushups. That's a mandate. I'm not giving you an option. I'm telling you this is what we're going to do and people are going to feel very uncomfortable with that. But if I'm in a meeting and I make an invitation and I say, you know, before we start, I'm just wondering, did anyone have like an interesting, anything happened this weekend? Like anything, anything interesting happen? That's an invitation. I have a question on the invitation side and it's something I've been puzzled about. It also has to do with you, Katrina, because I think one of the things that we picked up from some cool organizations that we worked with is very practically at the start of a meeting doing a check-in. So a check-in where you actually show up with some level of vulnerability or at least giving people a glimpse of how you show up. Got late for the last meeting. My kid is sick at home. Just a little shiver of something that gives a feeling of who is steep besides whatever I am in that meeting. I've always felt that that's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful invitation. It does something to the whole meeting. Everyone gets a little more courageous, shoulders down, all of that. Having said that, I think it's super difficult to do. I wish I had the courage to make it a non-negotiable, but I just feel that however good it is, we don't do it. No one does it. And everyone knows that they ought to. What's at play here? Is there any research? Is there anything that comes to mind? I think there's two things happening. The first is we tend to see that kind of behavior as being unproductive, not adding to productivity. But all the studies show it will make that meeting more effective. If we want to be productive, we should start with that check-in. Because it's going to give people permission to speak their mind. They're going to be more honest in the meeting. They're going to have better ideas. They're going to feel safer. But the second thing that stops us is the anxiety of the uncertain. Yes. When I ask that question, let's do a check-in. Has anything happened that's important for anyone? I don't know what the answer is going to be. Now, if I look at the agenda, I know half the answers, right? I know that we're going to talk about the budget and most people are going to say X and Y and Z. We tend to shy away from uncertainty, not because it's actually anxious, but we have anticipatory anxiety. And the more that we train ourselves to believe, the more that we practice it, the more that we convince ourselves, if we just take five minutes to check in with each other, this meeting is going to go better. The more it becomes a habit. Yeah. But it takes leaders who are willing, and honestly, it takes leaders to go first and say not just let's check in, but to say let's check in. In the last week, actually, I had this fight with my son, and it's driving me crazy, and I'm thinking about it. And if I'm distracted, it's because I'm thinking about that. Yes. How about you? What's going on? When we model that, we make it safe for other people. Yeah. I mean, maybe just to show even how extra hard it is, some of the things that myself and some good colleagues do is that we hold these coaching conversations where five people come together, and then essentially it's a check in. It's a check in to see where people are going and how is the way you're behaving at the moment in alignment with your values and who you'd like to be. And so we have these meetings probably on a monthly basis, and almost every time I do one of these sessions, everybody turns up going, I'm so busy. I don't think I've got time for this. And, you know, just really like stressed and stressy vibes. And on my usual days, I would say, then, you know, that's all fine, because by the end of that session, everybody has slowed down a bit. We've also connected. We've heard what's important. And to be honest, everyone else also checks out on a good note as well. This was a really good use of time. But on a bad day, and for example, before I had my summer break, there were a few of those. And everybody's sitting there going, oh, I'm so busy and so stressed and I've got so much to do. I don't have time for this. I was like, well, me too. I don't have to do this. So I think there's also something about emotional regulation and being in contact with where am I right now? So I'm just thinking, what does it take for a leader to make that space? And maybe it's that you're making space for yourself in advance and checking in. How am I? What kind of space can I hold today? Because maybe we can't hold the check-in space every day. That's absolutely right. And not everything has to be a conversation, right? Sometimes we get in the Uber and we don't want to talk to the driver. We just want to check our email, right? We want to just have a little bit of quiet. And that's okay. It's okay to admit to ourselves, I'm not up for a conversation today. I'm not certain I can do a check-in. But then it's also worth asking ourselves, how do I get to that place? Like, I know that the check-in is good. I know that the check-in makes me feel better afterwards. How do I remind myself in that moment how useful it is? And oftentimes the answer is we just remind ourself. We often don't know, we don't recognize rewards until we point them out to ourselves. And I think, Steve, in what you were saying about your conversations with your colleagues, the more we remind people, oh, actually, you're going to feel better after you do this. This is going to make this meeting more productive. The more that we remind ourselves that it's a good thing, and then it becomes easier and easier. I have a question to you. It's actually maybe two. It's related to asking questions. And I guess that's the foundation of actually having a conversation that is, at some point, there needs to be, you know, an invitation. Yeah. And a question. And it's an area. I know that, and I think most people know that. Nonetheless, I would say in 80% of meetings that I participate in, there is an exchange of views, positions on different things, subjects, issues. But no real, necessarily any real questions. So I would like you to maybe elaborate a little bit on why is it so difficult to ask, with such a simple thing as asking a question, why is that so difficult? And the second thing in that, what is a deep question? So you talk in your book about deep questions. Yeah. I would like us to maybe spend a little time on that subject. Sure. Afterwards. So I'm going to hypothesize something, and I'm curious if you guys think that it's right. I think asking questions is entirely a habit. So I'm a journalist. I probably ask, I don't think I've had a conversation in the last two years where I haven't asked people questions. Because it feels so natural to me. You do it. Yeah. It's just, and I don't even think about it. But it's because it's a habit. It's because I practiced it until it became automatic. And I think as a leader, if we want to get better at asking questions, we sort of assume, oh, I should already be good at this. Right? This is something I should have been born with. But the truth is, as a leader, you're not good at running a meeting until you've practiced running meetings. You're not good at putting on a presentation until you've practiced giving that presentation. Questions are the same thing. The more that we practice asking questions, the more it becomes natural. And the truth is, the more we encourage our employees to ask questions. And sometimes we can just say, I'd like us all to go around and ask one question apiece. And there's another thing that you did in your book, which I thought was really helpful for as a kind of tip for people on how to do this. And they were so simple. For example, you know, you go to a wedding and you're talking to someone and you happen to come up with all of these conversation topics. And then you'd ask, so what do you do, Stee, for example? And then you might answer. And then instead of then going into more facts about, you know, oh, where's that? And which offices do you work in or whatever? You might ask, so why did you start consulting? Or why did you start doing that? And you had a few great examples where instead of asking more about the facts and maybe some more objective elements, the practice of deep questions is turning any sort of simple topic into a talk about, well, who are you and what do you care about? And this gets to what you had asked about deep questions is that oftentimes a deep question, instead of asking us about the facts of our life, it asks us how we feel about our life. It asks us how we make sense of our life. So instead of asking you, I learned you're a doctor. Instead of asking what hospital do you work at? That's a fact. I ask, oh, why did you go to medical school? Or what do you love about being a doctor? Then I'm inviting someone to tell me who they are. And every deep question at its core is, what do you make of this? How do you think about this? How does this make you feel? Rather than, what is the fact? What is the way you interpret this for yourself? And people love being asked those questions. No one ever, ever minds being asked why they went to medical school. Because they know the answer. Yes. And when you mentioned those, we were having a conversation over lunch, this thing about authenticity in, like, to which extent are we able to detect or even smell miles away? Whether we are being manipulated by someone who's been on that great coaching course last week and asking those, you know. Deep questions. But so shallow, in a shallow way. Yes. Because sometimes you can feel, you know, okay, is this something that that person really authentically cares about? Or are we just warming me up? That's exactly right. We've all been at the party where someone says, where did you go on vacation? And then we realize they don't care where we went on vacation. They want to tell us about their vacation, right? They want to tell us about the yacht they rented. And I think the solution to this is we also have to listen to ourselves. When we ask a deep question, it has to be something that we're actually curious about. Yes. I can't ask you, oh, you know, why do you like that football team if I know nothing about football? Because it's not genuine. But if I say to you, you know, what's your fondest memory about sports? And then you talk about your father and playing football with your father. That's when we have to listen to ourselves to know where our curiosity actually exists and not try and pretend it. Yeah. And then you can create some conversations that you actually want to be a part of. That's right. Both in life and in work and so forth. We are coming very shortly to the end of our talk here. And I just maybe wanted to recap a few things that we talked about and then we'll close off. And so one was just reiterating these three types of conversations. So look out for whether we're about to have a practical, emotional or a social conversation. One where a decision needs to be made is a practical one. An emotional one is where I kind of want to be seen in some way. And a social one is where we kind of bond and become closer. And then noticing what does the other person want? And if you're in a meeting with more people, what do we all want? So you're trying to negotiate and move through together what kind of conversation do we want to be having. That's exactly right. And one of the best ways to do that is by asking those deep questions. Exactly. That invites someone to tell you what kind of mindset they're in. Yeah. Yes. Great. And that leads me to this closing that we always do on this podcast, which is we end by asking, what are we going to take on into our next conversation from the one that we've just had? And I can start because for me, you've sparked a little fire in me about practicing to come up with deep questions. I'm also, you know, even though we're talking on this podcast, Changing Conversations, I also show up to weddings where I'm like, oh my God, what are we going to talk about? And you talking about practicing it just reminded me, I think I should practice some more. So thank you for that. Thank you. How about you, Sti? I think it's also to do with the deep questions we can ask. I think the invitation you, the invitation I felt in the way you framed it was, I would have a tendency to think that I need to ask the right question. And that would sometimes hold me back because maybe I can't come up with that beautiful question that just opens up the space and solves everything. And you gave some beautiful examples of very straightforward ones that were just connected to the way the other person reasons and so forth. So for me, it felt very invitational to actually dial it down a little bit and just go more naturally into that. So thank you for that. And well, thank you. And to be messy, right? I think good conversations are messy conversations. Yeah. And relaxing into that. Yeah. How about you, Charles? So we're recording this at the retreat. Yes, this event that we have. We've invited you to speak here. Yeah. And I have to say, and I've spent the day here, the thing that I carry away from this is the courage, not only of the two of you, but the courage of the whole company. That people come and they camp together and they sleep in tents and bunk beds. And, you know, people are like half showered. It's really courageous to bring your authentic self to work. But it's also really inspiring. It is clear how much people enjoy being here. It is clear how much of an attachment they feel to this company and to their coworkers. And so the thing I carry away that it's just nice to be reminded of, and I thank you guys for doing this, is that when we are courageous, courage is its own reward. Whenever we put ourselves out there, whenever we do something that seems like, oh, this is going to be hard or awkward or weird, when we do it, we always feel better afterwards. Yes. And it's just nice to be reminded of that. Beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us and having this conversation with us. Thank you for having me. This is such a treat. And you invited for the party tonight. Oh, good. How did this conversation resonate with you? Get in touch via the link in the show notes to share your questions, challenges and opinions. And until next time, take care.