and the most important skill. When you talk about the difficulty and the disturbance, that's when change tends to flow. Yes. When you get the disturbance of repeating patterns. And the brain relaxes, far from panicking. The brain panics much more when there's falsehood. Yes. The brain relaxes when there's truth. Yes. That's why edge intention is the most important skill. Welcome to the Changing Conversations podcast. I'm Katie. And I'm Steve. We're consultants at Implement Consulting Group, and we believe that people and organizations change through changing conversations. This podcast is about inviting you into the conversations we're having with leading thinkers and researchers about the conversations they're changing. So you can get inspired and use their insights and questions to spark positive change and transformation in your organization. Today, we are thrilled to be in conversation with Deborah Rowland. Deborah is a pioneering expert on organizational change and change leadership. She researches these topics and offers her expertise to leaders and organizations through her consulting work. Deborah also shares her insights through her writing. She is the bestselling author of numerous books, including Still Moving and her latest book, From Ought to Is, which is piping hot off the press. Welcome, Deborah. Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure. Well, to kick things off, we would really like to get to know you better before we dive into your work. And so we have a couple of questions for you on the theme of changing conversations. So really curious to hear about what is one conversation that has shaped you and made you who you are? Yeah, that's a tough question. The one question. I think for me, the biggest question I'll remember till the day I leave this world anyway, was the one that I had with my mom and dad. I'm an adopted child. And I was wanting to trace my biological parents. And I love my mom and dad so much. And I was about age 40, I think, at the time. And I was so scared about this conversation that I thought I was going to lose them. And that they would not believe that they had been good enough parents for me. And I'd spent about four or five years umming and ahhing, should I do it, should I not? And I remember vividly, I even remember what I was wearing at this conversation. And I'd rehearsed it and I prepared it. Because my biggest fear was I would lose their relationship after, you know, their generosity and goodwill. But they were just fantastic. And I went in with my knees knocking, fearing I would lose contact. And yet I just sat down, we were in a pub, this is in England, and I just told it them straight, this is what I wanted to do. And their response was amazing. And my heart's thumping now, even recalling it. And what I really learned from that conversation, they were quiet for a minute or two. And then they just said, you go with our blessing. And from that conversation, I think I realized that no conversation is too fierce to have. So if you're fearing you're going to go into a conversation and lose contact with somebody, by saying something that you think is a high risk, really high risk, and you fear losing contact and belonging. And I learned that no, it doesn't have to be that way. I think if you go into these conversations with heart, with intention, then you don't fall off the universe. So I'll never ever forget that conversation. Wow. Thank you. That's a beautiful one. Thank you for sharing. Our next question is what you think the gift, or you could call it a superpower, is that you're bringing into conversations, maybe informed by that big conversation you mentioned. Yes, I think, can I have two? Yes. Yes. Please. Well, I think the first one probably speaks for itself, but emotional bravery. So I remember when I was working at PepsiCo in New York, I was drilled in what's called the art of successful pushback in conversations. So how can you really bring your whole self to a conversation? And so I always felt that no conversation would be, you know, too risky to have. But what I usually do is bring my emotions into a dialogue, but with full command of the emotion rather than becoming emotional. So how can you be brave with feeling and not just what you're thinking in a dialogue? And I always find that emotions change a conversation. And the clue is in the word. If you put a dot between E and motion, you get E energy for movement, E motion. So emotions serve movement. So if you don't bring emotions into a conversation, they don't move you to any place. Yes. So I think that's probably my number one superpower. And you said you had a second. So I did have a second. And I love using conversations as an anthropologist, as conversations as a diagnosis. You learn to how are people having the conversation. It gives you a clue into the culture, the words that are being used, the words that are not being used. So I think my other superpower is to not take conversations at face value, but to actually be there and to change the conversation by commenting on the conversation and what kind of conversation are we having here. So I think it's the systemic stance you take in a conversation. David Cantor, who's a brilliant guy on changing conversations, calls it the bystander role. So when you're in a conversation, you don't get into the fisticuffs. I agree, you disagree, let's bring in more data to try and convince ourselves. But the bystander kind of takes the time out and observes the conversation as it's happening and is curious about what is this conversation telling us. Wow. So I also like doing that in conversations. I think that's a really nice transition because given this is a skill and a gift that you bring into conversations, taking that, we might use the language of it, a balcony view of the conversation. So when we look at your work, particularly on leading change and the inner and the outer skills that are needed to do this successfully, you've done some fantastic research here. And we're really curious to hear what is that conversation that you've been intending to change as you're releasing this work through your books, your talks, your writing? Yes, I can talk about maybe two things. One is my intention and the other is the impact. Please. Because sometimes the impact it has is not always the same as the intention that you brought to it. So, of course, when you put a book or your writing out into the world, you think, oh, this is my intention, but then you receive impact. Yes. And hopefully it aligns, but sometimes it leads you to, oh, I didn't realize that that was going to happen that way. But I think my intention through all my work is essentially to help leaders see that in leading change, it's not about leading others or what's outside you. Because most people come into changing, I've got to change the situation and avoiding having the conversation about what is it about myself that is creating the situation or the patterns that I'm trying to change in my team or in the company. So I do believe that it starts with a conversation with oneself, to look inside oneself and to hear the narrative that you're bringing into any particular situation. And particularly to get over one's reactivity to experience. When something comes along, it's so easy just to instantaneously react out of habit rather than to stop, notice what's going on. And to, I call it, hit the pause button. Yes. Before you just respond in your default routine, autopilot, what could change the conversation here? So I think the biggest thing I intended was to help leaders see it starts with me. It doesn't start with the team or I've got to re-engineer a process. How about looking inside myself first? That's a beautiful, I think it's a beautiful way of framing it. It makes me think of a theme that we've been exploring a little bit, this thing about that you have a, it's easy as a leader to have an outer horizon. Something you want to change, something you look at that needs to move, transform, but your outer horizon cannot be wider than the level of your inner horizon. So there's, there's a, they match. So if you, if you have a shallow understanding of yourself and your own role in the context, it also kind of limits your outer horizon. And, and if you deepen your understanding of yourself and your inner horizon and, and all these things that, that, that also opens up for actually seeing more. Does that resonate with you? It resonates completely. It is so, so true. And that reminds me of this incredible guy, Dag Hammerskjold. He was the second ever secretary general of the United Nations back in the late fifties. And he's written this wonderful little book called Markings. Markings. Hmm. So while he was, you know, secretary general of the UN, you know, a small job, I think there were about a hundred countries in the UN at the time and Markings, this is private journals. Not about the big meetings he chaired or anything like that. They're all about exploring his inner world. Hmm. He wrote poetry. He brought his faith into it. And it's remarkable insight into what was he imagining inside himself. And he talked about finding that point of rest inside yourself. Wow. But that is, that is, I think you're touching upon something. He's a huge leader. Yeah. And yet he took this seriously. It's so inspiring. I think that inner conversation, inner leader, our own inner conversations with ourself, it's something that's very rarely talked about, how nurturing it is to actually create space for that or do journaling or finding out that I'm also a poet, you know, even though that I, you know, there's something beautiful about shedding light on that. Yes. And that you're really helping us to see into with your work, Deborah is bringing together the inner and the outer and the language you give for working with the quality of your being as a way to enable the quality of your doing. And I think you have a really interesting distinction between action and movement. And to illustrate it and I'd love to hear you put a few words to it. I love this quote that you give by David White, which Steve might also appreciate. You write in the book, quoting David, speed is often ironically a symptom of complete immobility. So can you talk to us about why speed and busyness and action isn't the same as true movement? Well, you can't change what you can't notice. And you can't notice things when you're going busy. I remember the head of Shell Chemicals when I worked for Shell, lovely guy, Lee Patterson, I can still remember his name. And I was young in my mid thirties when I started work there in the change team. And he said to me once, he said in America, he said, Deb, no space, no movement. And I never forget Lee saying that. And if you're sitting on the London underground and you're all empty and you just can't move, you know. So this whole notion around being able to create the space for movement to stop, notice, pause. I did a talk once and somebody in the audience came up to me and said, Deborah, I use the three Ps. I said, what's the three Ps? And she said, pause permits perspective. Ah. I love that. And it was just her little thing that helped herself. And it can be a pause of one second. It's amazing in a busy conversation how even one second pause, can I switch my brain here from anxiety to curiosity? It's phenomenal how the brain, you can be in charge of your brain and your mind. And often the mind's running us, we don't run our minds. So just a nanosecond pause can help you respond in a very, very different way. So that's what is what I call movement. Yes. Whereas action is just unconscious repetition of past routine. You're just on that treadmill and you're not stopping to notice or pause. And as I said, if you can't change what you can't notice, you're not able to notice anything. And you can't notice when you're so busy. So that's what I mean. Can you share also your definition of change? Because I think it's beautiful. I define change, and I hope it's the same definition as what you're thinking, as the disturbance of repeating patterns. That's so beautiful. That's nice. You're so poetic, Deborah, in your writing. I mean, you have such a way with words and language. Yeah, I did English literature at eight levels. I do like it. But how can you put something that's big into just a small sentence? But every word in there, going back to changing conversations, how can you have not wasteful language? Because we can blah, blah, blah our way through life, can't we? Yeah. Corporate mumbo jumbo. But if you think about disturbance, repeating, and patterns, no wonder we actually stay locked. Patterns are very stable structures. They are in nature as well as in our own habits and routines, in our relationships and in our leadership. And I think actually what you're saying here, I think it's inspiring in the sense if we're talking conversations. So if you can bring that insight into the conversation, so any leader will be any given day in 100 conversations. It's actually from the get go to the end of the day. It's one big conversation, small, large. And just having the courage to show up in those conversations and, for instance, being able to pause or even change the mode by asking a beautiful question. So there is just a very, very deep, and it sounds so simple, but this thing about not showing up in the conversation the way you've always shown up in the conversation, but having an invitation to be there differently. I think that it's actually a very difficult thing. That's lovely. Can I be there differently? Yeah. Because it is about a being. It is a presencing, how to have a different presence. Yes. And this thing about, you're also talking about this thing about making listening an intimate act. So a very, very deep connection with what is there, what are we talking about, and how am I in that conversation. And we all know that feeling of being there in a shallow way versus really connecting to what we're trying to explore, really connecting with the people, and how that totally transforms the conversation. Do you know, you remind me, Steve, of a coaching intervention I did once with a wonderful leader. But he was finding with his team that he was losing people. They weren't really paying attention to what he was saying. And I remember I did, there is a program on BBC Radio called Just a Minute, where in just a minute you're given a topic and you have to speak for one minute without hesitation, repetition or deviation. Hmm. So I thought, okay, in this coaching conversation, this was ancient now. I had my little tape recorder with me. You know, you didn't have smartphones to record. So I had a tape recorder and a cassette and I hit play. So I said, okay, Edgar, you have one minute to talk about your strategy, starting from now. And so he sort of rambled on a bit and then I, let's play it back. Let's hear how you were coming across. And he went, oh, my goodness. Is that okay? Let's try it again. But it was a very, very brave leader who actually wanted to, how can I, can I hear my language? Can I hear how I'm coming across to others? So, you know, maybe today, you know, if you're preparing for a big meeting or a talk or whatever, just record yourself. Hear how you do have a, how do you come across? Yeah. We're unaware, aren't we? It's the Jahari window. We have blind spots. Yeah. And even these days, I mean, have a conversation with your AI friend and ask that friend to give you a feedback before going into the conversation. Yes. Yes. I think you, you made me think about my dog. Sometimes you think, how can a dog, but I've got a really good friend. She uses her horses for leadership coaching. Oh. It's amazing how animals can pick up our moods, our being, you know, you talked about being. Yes. And if the horse goes, nah, the horse wanders off, you know, it gives you a bit of feedback. And also, you can use AI, you can maybe use your wonderful animal companion too. Yes. Sorry, we're going off pace here. No, no, no. And we, we go where the conversation takes us. I am really interested to hear a little bit more about, so we're talking right now about how animals can sense our emotions and give us feedback. And I'm curious about how, as individuals and leaders, a little bit related to the point you were making at the beginning about emotions. Mm-hmm . How can we use our emotions and the tensions that we feel in us as systemic data? I think this is just fascinating to me. Sophie, you could add a few words about that. Yeah. And the language you use is vital. So let me, let's just explore the difference between me saying in a meeting, I am angry. Mm-hmm . And compare that with, I feel anger. Mm. What's the difference you, I mean, one is it's just happening in me as the kind of a closed system that this is of me, anger, and it's a personal experience. And the other is seeing it as something that's connected to others and having a more systemic view on emotion. That's my interpretation with this. Yeah, if you say that you, you feel anger, then it's something you and me can explore and talk about. Whereas if you're angry. This is mine. There is no invitation in that. Yeah. Lovely. So it's a, it's different, isn't it? Yes. So you can use the emotion, but how are you going back to conversations? How do you articulate the emotion? And it's called, um, decentering. Can I decenter myself from the emotion? So the emotion is not me. Yes. I, I am carrying the emotion. So where is that emotion coming from? So it's a subtle difference, isn't it? Yes. But, but. You, you don't become the feeling. But I love, the feeling is visiting you. But I love, I love the way you do that because I, I actually have that experience that in, in most corporate organizational matters. Mm-hmm . You, you, you, there's actually almost an, an ambition to sanitize the conversation. Yeah. For emotion. Because you just feel. Yeah. Well, emotions come and go and it cannot be too emotional and all of that. So you, you kind of, in a weird way in an organization, try to create this sanitized, sterile, fact-based. Yeah. So-called conversation, knowing that there's so much into play that you want out of the conversation that turns out to be not a real conversation. So I, I like the, the, the distinction you make because it, it makes an invitation to bring in emotion without making the conversational, the conversation emotional. Yes. Exactly. So emotions as data versus getting emotional. And as you're saying, um, Katie, that you then, where is this emotion coming from? Yes. I'm not angry at you, but I'm feeling anger. Mm-hmm . So let's be curious about the emotion rather than, um, let it overcome us. And I, I think that's, it's such a subtle difference in language and yet it makes all the difference. And you know, you know, you know, with the mirror neurons in the brain, how we articulate things will affect the adrenaline or the dopamine that's going through you. And when people are adrenalized around you, they'll go into the stress response. Shit, what have I done? Yeah. I made her angry, you know, because often people take it on, oh gosh, have I done something wrong? She's angry. Yeah. And also, I mean, if it's going to be a real conversation, then say that you were angry. Mm-hmm . I would unconsciously know that from the get go. So by you not owning it. There you go. I'm sitting with, there is something weird here or the way, uh, the way you came into the room or the way you opened the conversation. So I'm pulling back a little bit because I'm sensing something and you're not exposing it to me. So already from the get go, you're creating a foundation for a real conversation by actually bringing what is into the conversation rather than hiding what is already in the conversation. Yes. It's so incongruous, isn't it? I remember, um, when I used to work at Shell, we used to run a leadership program on the art of great dialogue. And one of the little tools we used, um, it was called the left hand column. Yes. With Chris Argyris. Yes. Beautiful. Oh my goodness. It's so good. But it's so simple. Blank piece of paper, put a line down the middle. What am I thinking and feeling, but not saying? Mm. What am I saying? And you just get leaders in a conversation, you know, right, time out after 30 minutes, just fill in both the left and the right hand column. Yes. And what you thought and felt, but didn't say. Mm. And he said, talks about use your left hand column as a resource. Yes. Because the interesting thing is about not what's in the left hand column, but why is it in the left hand column? And why wasn't I able to put it into the right hand column? Mm. Mm. I love little things like this. Yes. It just helps people bring the authentic, what's really happening, the conversation that's not being heard into the room. Yeah. Yeah. So there's that, that noticing what's happening in me and what can that tell me about what's happening within this group, within us, and then more broadly in the organization, the system, and using all the data we have available to us, considering emotions as data for that. Yes. So just, why wouldn't you want to be smarter as a leader and as a leadership team and use that information? Mm. So that's a key inner skill that you've uncovered. And I think, thinking about the outer practices and the number one skill that you found is edge and tension, which I think that C is going to like, we love talking about tensions and implement. So can you say a little bit about what this looks like when done well? Because you've also found that even though it's the number one most important skill, it's also the one that leaders do the most poorly or avoid doing. So there's a lot of pitfalls here. Mm. What does it look like when they do it well? Yes. So this, this word edge and tension, or the phrase edge and tension, and when I introduce it, people get, oh, it's a memorable thing, isn't it? Yeah. Those, those, those three words. But essentially it's about straight talking. Mm. Mm. Mm. But straight talking, um, with positive intent. Mm-hmm. And again, from a systemic lens. Yes. So it's not straight talking to state my opinion and blah, and just dump something on somebody or to get into an argument. Mm-hmm. So if you do have those inner skills of curiosity, um, being authentic, then the edge and tension is in service of something. Mm-hmm. You're bringing it out in service of us, um, doing something different here or stopping a pattern that we can feel in ourselves, but we're just not attending to. Mm-hmm. So, um, so basically that's what edge and tension is. It's about talking straight, without compromise, but with compassion. Mm-hmm. So you say things like, you know, what's the conversation we're not having here that we need to have? Yes. Yes. Um, when I worked with one client, we had what's called a scarometer. Mm-hmm. So it's on a scale of one to ten. Yeah. What is it that I might risk saying here? Mm-hmm. And people would put them on post-it notes and put them on the wall, and then people would rank them. Oh, that's really, you know, let's, sometimes people put their name on it and some people didn't, but, and then put up on the wall on a scale of one to ten. What's the most scary thing we could bring into this conversation? Mm-hmm. Now let's start with the seven pluses. Yes. You know. Yes. So again, you can use, they're not sort of magic tricks, but you can use tools to make them easy, permissible. Mm-hmm. I guess Amy would call it, you know, psychologically safe to have the difficult conversations. And they're so important to have because, as you're saying, Stig, when you talk about the difficulty and the disturbance, that's when change tends to flow. Yes. That's when you get the disturbance of repeating patterns. And the brain relaxes, far from panicking. The brain panics much more when there's falsehood. Mm-hmm. The brain relaxes when there's truth. Yes. That's why edge intention is the most important skill. Mm-hmm. I think you're touching upon a big, big theme, and I think you're right. And I tend to agree that I think one of the most important leadership skills whatsoever is actually the ability to identify the conversations that are broken or, put differently, identify the issues or the tensions we need to talk about. Yes. And I think we have a tendency to avoid the true tensions and tackle something right next to it. Yeah. That's a little more comfortable. Yes. And stay there. Yes. It's a very, very important skill to both identify there's something here where we're not really where we're supposed to be, but also be able to shape the conversation that allows us to speak about it. Mm-hmm. Because it takes, you need to be a caring, you need to come in with care and appreciation. Yes. Otherwise, it'll just close people down and it's just a smack in the face. Mm-hmm. You know, why are we not? You know, it can easily turn into a blame thing where people get defensive. Yes. So holding that conversation and as a leader, be invitational. I think that's something when you experience that, it's so motivating. Yes. So stating your intention as to why this conversation is important that we need to have. When you talk about shaping conversations, I also feel that they can be shaped by how you use physical space. Yes. So it is partly your language, but it's also physical space. And I don't know about you, but when you sit in circles, without a table in between… Yes. Something happens. Something happens. And sometimes it's right, sometimes it's really not. But doesn't it change things? It does. Yeah. People used to call me, oh, she's the woman who will want all the tables taken out and, you know, chairs in circles. But also… So clients got to know, but there's a board table and it's fixed, right? Or can we have another meeting room then? Mm-hmm. And also, if you're having a really sensitive conversation, something that's really difficult, sometimes it's actually easier to walk alongside or sit next to each other in a car. Because if the intensity of the subject is really high, eye contact can sometimes make it even tougher. Yeah, that's true. So walking alongside, sensing each other, but without eye contact all the time, sometimes eases it a little bit. Yes, yes. And how you want to hold the conversation. Yes. I once did a session where the chairs were facing outward. Yes. So the leaders came into the room. And the goal of the change was stated as becoming more externally orientated, more in line with the customers. I thought, well, let's replicate here that kind of thing. We're not looking in the center, we're looking out, you know, across the periphery. And leaders came in, oh, do we move the chair? Yeah. So they all sort of sat looking outside. And again, no instruction from me. Yeah. And you just waited to hear. Yeah. And people talked about their discomfort. Yeah. But it actually led to an incredibly powerful conversation about, I feel that you have my back, but I'm also looking outward. So it's incredible how you can use, like, going for a walk. Standing up, standing up conversations can be more authentic. Because literally, the hormones, if we stood up now, we'd have a different conversation than if we stayed sitting. Because physiologically, your heart opens when you stand up. It's more crushed when you're sitting down. And when you think about, if you really think about, okay, we have a day in front of us. I had a workshop a couple of weeks ago with a handful of partners in the company I'm in. And we could just feel that there was a little bit of it. We arrived at the place. Everyone was a little bit busy. We were going to talk about something that was, you know, difficult to talk about. And we just felt we need to do something to shift the energy. Okay. So we basically took half an hour altogether in the beginning where we did exactly what you said. Great. So we would have, for instance, me listening to the four others, having a conversation around what they think my greatest gift into this is, and what they appreciate about me being in that conversation, and where they feel that I have a superpower to bring to the team. And we did the same with each of us. And the marinade that creates within half an hour just meant that, you know, the rest of the day just felt so much more authentic, so much more real. And it's back to your point around having the courage to say what is to move on from there. Yes, but you created the container, didn't you? Yeah. With this positive appreciation. I sometimes talk about, have you ever been to an osteopath if you've got a bad back or something? Yes. And she sort of, you know, does a lot of massage and then... But because I'm so relaxed and feeling positive about her, she then goes in with the... But she says the body has to relax and feel trusting and then you can bring it in the edge intention, you know. So it's vital that you do the two things together. Yes. I love that both and, and to quote you to you again, because I love your language and wordings here with the both confronting reality and tension and also containing anxiety. Yes. You use the word container there. Yes. That that is so important as a leader to create that environment. Yes. I think what's really important about your perspective here is that you're not saying to make it easy. You're not saying to avoid difficult conversations or to have a therapy session. You're actually trying to create a context where people are able to, to surface and name these, these difficult things. Yeah. So as we move a little bit into a wrap up mode, curious to hear some advice about if you're a leader listening or even an individual wanting to create an environment where change can happen, where we dare to disturb repeating patterns as a group. If we kick off with some pieces of advice, be that experiments to run, questions to ask, conversations to start, what would you offer the listeners? Hmm. Well, I think we have touched on a few, haven't we? Yeah. I would certainly experiment with the physical space. Yes. Hmm. I worked with the CFO once who did the standing up meetings only. So he changed his meeting room and just had like a bar table. Apart from the fact he reduced conversations by half, because he was the fine, he had a spreadsheet and he was looking at the time. So half, you know, very efficient. Yeah. You have quicker conversations when he's standing up. So using circle, you know, whatever it is, you can experiment with the physical space, I think, because that's a relatively low risk. I like that. Sort of when I say easy, but it's, you know, I don't know. I think that's an important thing. I do believe having things like the left-hand column. I think one thing that's so important at the start of meetings is to have what we call a check-in process. Mm-hmm. So before you go, right, item on the agenda, right, let's look at the minutes of the last meeting or, you know, let's have the presentation from the marketing person. You know, if you have an hour meeting, can you have the opening five minutes just either in silence, I've done that before, but can somebody say, oh, that's way too long, Deborah. Well, just experiment with a minute. Mm. Because you've got to somehow sort of unhook yourself from what came before, and you need to be fully present for what's now to come. Yes. So silence is part of dialogue. Yes. You know, it's not just about talking, it's about not talking. Because when we're not talking, we hear each other better. Mm. So I think check-ins, physical structure, I don't know. Yes. Those are fantastic. And for yourself, so going back a little bit to the inner, let's say you're in a meeting and you're noticing you're having a sense of tension, frustration, anger, any little micro practices that you've learned that could be useful for a leader who wants to tune into themselves to tune into the system? Mm. There's a little thing, you can look at it online, called the awareness wheel. And you put I in the centre, and then on the wheel it's notice, think, feel, need, and do. So what am I noticing here? What am I thinking about what I'm seeing? How do I feel about what that is? What are my needs right now, to say or not to say? And then what am I going to do about it? Mm. And I've used that with Lee, and it's so cool, the awareness wheel. Very good. So that's another little device to help you, again, watch your mind and how you're responding in a situation. Mm. I don't know if that's another example of how you can just have all these tricks. Mm. I'm a very practical person. Yes. As well as enjoying the philosophy. I like the sort of practical things that you can do. Yes. It inspires me. I think what you said in the beginning, this thing about, so my sense of busyness also pushes a sense of repetition for me. So because I'm in a busy mode. So, so this, for me, this coming to ground and silence and actually connecting prior to very practically, I go into a meeting. Mm. If I just spend one minute prior to that meeting thinking about what is my gift into that meeting? What is my intention? Mm. What is my aspiration for the conversation we're going to have? Mm. I, it radically changes my ability to be there instead of just tumbling into it and just. Yeah. Being me, which is sometimes not good enough. That's right. Yeah. You have to be intentional. Um, and also I think, think about what is, what is the thing that I need to risk here as well? Yes. Yes. That's a beautiful question. What is it? Yeah. You know, when the heart, you know, you can almost feel your heart bumping. You know, that's the thing I need to say. So that's another thing for preparation. I think it's having the intention, which will be the attractor in my language. Yes. The attractor skill, but also, I would also advise the edge intention. Yeah. What's the biggest risk I could take here? I think another Deborah-ism that I, that I really enjoy is make friends with disturbance or make disturbance your friend. Mm. I think that is also a really useful mindset to have with us going into conversations is to not shy away from the disturbance that we pick up in, but to actually use that and go with that to try to create some kind of a positive change or intelligence or real conversation in that moment. But don't beat yourself up if you don't have it either. Thank you for that. Oh, I chickened out. Oh. You know. Yeah. So, be kind on yourself as well. I'm sorry. That's a perfect place to end. Thank you so much, Deborah. It's been just a joy being in conversation with you. Really appreciate your time. How did this conversation resonate with you? Get in touch via the link in the show notes to share your questions, challenges, and opinions. And until next time, take care. Bye.