and the next day. Glossary, Ph.D.: Good morning everybody and welcome to our little morning event about benefits, realization and change. We're really happy that you have dialed in, joined us this morning in cyberspace. So we hope that you're all logged in and that you have a nice cup of coffee. We will just jump straight into it. So the first thing we would like to do is tell you a little bit about who we are. So Rasmus, why don't you start? Rasmus Grütter, Ph.D.: Yes, my name is Rasmus Grütter. I've been with Implement for almost 11 years now and before that I had just about 10 years in the industry doing jobs as a project manager. So maybe doing some of the same jobs that you have right now. When I really think about it, I can still sort of remember it. So what I do now is that I help organizations realize as many benefits as possible, either from a project level or at the portfolio level. That was sort of the short version. Glossary, Ph.D.: Yes. And my name is Helena. I also work here at Implement Consulting Group. I am a consultant that works with project management. It's my great, great, great passion area. So I'm really happy that we get to nerd into the two methods of benefits, realization and change today because I really do believe that those are the methods that help us create impact with our projects. So I will just take you through what we will be going through today. So first we will do this little introduction to the event. We're already doing it. We can see the chat. So please write questions in the chat. It's a little bit delayed for us. So we'll see it half a minute late, I think. So if we don't answer right away, don't despair. We will get to it. So let us know if you have any thoughts or questions, then we'll try to take them. Then very soon, I'll invite Rasmus back on the stage and he will talk about benefits realization. What is this method? What's it all about? It's just a brief introduction. Rasmus has written books on this topic, so he will try to do it very briefly. Then I would elaborate a little bit about the change method that we use in combination with the benefits realization. And then the main event of this event will join us here on stage because we do have two very bright people from Nordlys who will tell you about how they have implemented this method at their organization. So I know that's what you're all waiting for, but you have to listen to me and Rasmus a little bit before they are allowed on stage. Then we will take some time for questions at the end. But as I said, please write them in the chat along the way. And that's the program for today. So I hope you stay on the call that you don't get discouraged from this, that this was sort of what you were hoping for. This is what you're going to get anyway. Before I hand it over to Rasmus, I'll just take you through the journey that we have been on with benefits realization, because it's actually something that we have been doing for quite a while here in Implement Consulting Group. So at least the journey we have been on started around 10 years ago, actually almost exactly 10 years ago, when Rasmus, he wrote a paper on program management. And when you write about program management, and I'm sure if some of you already know a lot about program management, you know that benefits realization is a core part of it. However, what Rasmus and our colleagues found was that it was sort of theoretical. So they said, you know what, we need a more practical approach, we need to understand how we actually do it, how do we work with benefits in the real world. So of course, he wrote the first book, where he took, you can say the concepts and make them into actionable workshops and tools that we can use. And that meant that we spent a long time in the period after that, actually implementing what we call the benefit map and the benefit plan. You will see that in the future, in a second, what that is, what that is. We did it, for instance, with a new credit. That was sort of our, one of our first projects where we really got to test it out in real life. And we can maybe see in hindsight now, that the way that we used it was not so structured, but it still created a lot of impact and new credit I can share is still very happy about it today. But we learned a lot. So one of the things that we learned was that we needed to be more clear, not only on the benefit part, but also on the benefit part, but also on the benefit part, the change part. So how is it that we help our colleagues, the people actually change behavior so we can realize the benefits. So that became our focus after new credit. And that's also what we did in Airstel. We helped them work with both benefits realization and change. And that gave rise to yet another book, where the change part was integrated very firmly into our method, and where we also implemented our and we were able to implement it in our method. So, the next one, in a more agile context. So if you don't work with more traditional waterfall project methods, how do you then use this method? That was introduced in this book. That meant that we were allowed to go out, for instance, with Novo Nordisk and test this method out. And we got really, really clear on how do we implement it, not only in an agile way, but also testing it out with pilot projects to make sure that we learn and build those learnings. Then Rasmus realized Denmark is a small country. We needed to translate the books into English. So he did it. I don't know, like he has more hours in his day than most of us. So he wrote the third book, translated the second book into an English version, where we are catering for the more global market. And then since actually a little bit more than a year ago, we've been working with Norlin, and they have been implementing this method in a much more structured way, where it's become even more clear how we use method experts. You will know what they are very soon. And also how to scale it to the bigger organization. So that's what you will be listening to today. So that's a little bit about the journey. Rasmus, will you put some more context into what benefits realize? Yes, I certainly will. Thank you very much, Elina. Yes, we. Yes. All right. What we usually do in these types of events is to look at how are we really doing? What data is available on our current ways of working with benefits? And usually I only recommend my own books, but for this book, How Big Things Get Done by Blanfubia, I'll make an exception. Because he has spent an amazingly long time getting a lot of data about a lot of projects. So the data that he has to show is really super solid and based on a lot of projects. So, and what he found is that when you look at all types of projects, then four out of five projects cost more than we expected and deliver less benefits than we hoped. And I think, you know, zooming into maybe the projects that you are more familiar with, and that's what I would assume is maybe IT projects, then I think 73% of those are actually over budgeted. When it comes to the benefit part. When it comes to the benefit part, we usually we usually lose another data source, and that is the Danish state auditors. Because a couple of years ago, they made a big survey on 44 large IT projects in the Danish government. And what they found was that when they asked the owners of these projects, you know, how are we actually doing? Or how well did how did it go? They said, well, we probably realized a bit than less than 50% of the benefits that we hope to realize. But when they then looked at, you know, what can we actually document? What is what can we? What evidence do we have that these benefits were actually realized? Then we could also only find sort of sufficient documentation for a measly 18% of the benefits. And as a Danish taxpayer, I certainly hope that the truth is probably closer to the 50% than the 80%. But in either way, it's not good numbers. So the key question is, of course, you know, why are we in this situation? And I think one of the main reasons is that we have a very large focus on the IT part of this project. Because if you are building a project and using we usually look at this slide, we usually look at this slide. And what I want, what I just want to stress is that, that I'm sure if I asked any of you on the call, do you think that benefits realization is important and something that we should include in our projects? I'm sure, you know, you would also yes. And if I then ask you, you know, do you think it's a good idea that we help our good colleagues get through this change in the best way possible and apply some level of change management, you would probably? also say yes. But then when we look at where we actually spend our time and our money and our energy, it's actually still on the technical deliverables. So even though all of you, and if I ask the same questions to anyone in your organization, I'm sure they would also say that benefits realization and change is important. But even though the technical part is still where we use the majority of our efforts. And so the big thing or the big question is, of course, you know, what is it that we need to do? And I think at least we need to do two things. One thing, and that's kind of the easy thing is that we need to change the way we look at these types of projects. And that's kind of the easy part, because we're kind of hoping to fix that with the next slide. The more the more cumbersome part is that we need to make it as easy and practical to work with benefits realization and change. And we've been working, you know, at least since the 60s on how can we become more structured on how we work with, for example, IT or product development and so on and so forth. But we haven't got the same level of maturity and structure and common sense built into the way we are working with the same level of maturity. working with benefits realization and change. So I think that is the big thing that we need to succeed with, because when we do that, then it would be much, much easier for us to build that into the way we are working with projects. All right. And as Selena said, you know, we will be taking questions. So if you have a question, just please put it in the chat. And even though there's a delay, we will get to it as soon as we can. But for now, I'll just slip to that next slide that that offers a new view on on change projects. And I know it's a bit of a busy slide. So so if you could just look in in the bottom part here as a start, then you can see that there's a very, very basic project model underneath here. And and I'm sure your project model is slightly more advanced and have more phases and so on and so forth. But I hope you get the picture. And so what what we want to stress in with this slide is that, you know, we, we, we, we, of course, need to, to, to work with the technical part of the project, like we always do. But on top of that, we also need to continuously work with change and benefits realization from the very beginning of the project and to the very end, except actually for benefits realization, where we actually do not stop when the project stops, but continue to, to, to track. whether we are actually realizing the benefits that we hope. And so, so there's a job to be done from the very beginning of the project to the very end on both the technical part, as you know, but also on the change part and on the benefit part. And we're going to, me and Helena is going to spend some time actually elaborating, unfolding what's going on in the benefit track. And later Helena will discuss what's going on in the change track. But, but, but, but before we do that, I'd like to, to introduce you to our maturity model. I can see we have something on the screen that was not actually supposed to be there, but our, our maturity model is something that we have worked with for the last three or four years. And, and I was actually a little bit uncertain whether a maturity model would be a good thing to, to use. But then I saw some of our colleagues working with Lean and they had, they used their maturity model to, to spark some really, really good conversations with their customers about where, where they were and where they wanted to be. And so, so we've been using this framework for the last three years and, and we found it to be a super good way to start a conversation about where are you and where do you want to go. And so, so basically, it has four levels and level, level zero is where many organizations start at some point. And at level zero, you don't really have one standard way of applying benefits realization and change. And, and, and the way it's used, it's, it's mostly ad hoc, if, if at all. So if some projects may do it, some projects may not. When we reach level one, then we have a defined standard on, you know, how do we approach benefits realization and change. And we might have a standard, but, but only some of our projects are, are using it at level one. That changes at level two, where we, uh, the, the, the, the, the standard being applied to, uh, the, the whole, uh, portfolio or, or the, all the projects that, um, uh, that are, um, that is relevant for, for example, business, uh, change projects. And then on level three, uh, we start using the data that we get from, uh, these projects applying, uh, benefits realization and change. So we get, uh, much better, uh, much better data on, you know, what's the cost of change and what benefits can we realistically, uh, hope to achieve if we launch this project to make, uh, much better, uh, prioritization, uh, decisions at a management level. And then, uh, finally, level four, uh, we use, uh, benefits realization or benefits as the backdrop of everything in do we do in, uh, in, in, in terms of, uh, projects. And I, and you can, we borrowed, uh, as I said, we borrowed this, uh, maturity, um, uh, model from, uh, from lean. And, uh, and I guess sort of level four, I'm a little unsure if any organizations are there yet. Maybe Norleuz will get there very soon. But, uh, but, uh, sort of, if you make sort of the lean comparison, this is where you, uh, you go to, uh, Toyota to study how it's really done and the origin and, and sort of the, sort of the, the, the, the mecca of the, of, uh, of, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the method. So, uh, I'm a little bit uncertain if, um, if, uh, if we still, uh, if we have any at, at, at level four, but at least I know, uh, we have some of level three. So, um, so what I would like, uh, you to, uh, to just, uh, think about for a second is, okay, uh, where, uh, where is my organization at the moment? So, uh, now we will launch a, uh, a poll. And so, please does, uh, use a moment to think about it. Uh, is my, organization at level zero, one, two, three, or four and, uh, write your inputs, uh, in the poll. Mm-hmm. I can see, uh, some, some answers are arriving. I can also see that there's a question whether the, uh, presentation will be shared afterwards. And I can assure you we will share the, uh, the presentation. And, uh, and as I said, you know, uh, this, uh, maturity model is a very, very good way to, uh, to start a conversation also at home. So, uh, so, uh, feel free to, uh, to do that as well, of course, uh, um, and, uh, and, and use the slides for that. Okay. Okay. I think we'll just give people 10 more seconds to, uh, push the button and then, uh, we will get the results. All right. Let's, uh, let's have the results. Cool. And, uh, maybe, uh, not surprisingly, um, almost 50% are at, uh, level zero, 44% is at, uh, level one. And then there's a few, uh, 7% at, uh, at level two. So, um, I guess that's a very, very, uh, common side. We've used this, uh, as, uh, uh, we've asked this question, uh, quite a few times before. And, uh, that's, that's sort of a, a very, very typical distribution of, uh, of where we are. All right. Cool. Thank you so much for participating and, uh, giving us, uh, some insights, uh, uh, to where you, uh, are at the moment. Then I will sort of, uh, deep dive, uh, into, uh, the subject matter part. And, um, this is, uh, I guess what my, uh, what the, the benefit realization process looked sort of in the first, uh, 10 years of, uh, of my career. And, um, and, uh, back then, uh, I was a project manager or a program manager. And, um, I worked there for, for different, uh, both private and public organizations. And there were usually somebody, uh, in that organization who prioritized the projects. And, um, and what usually happened was that, um, uh, a project was, uh, was launched. And then, um, uh, somebody rounded me up and said, Rasmus, uh, you look like you have some, uh, vacant capacity. Could you please do this project? And, um, um, I would say, uh, I would say yes. And, um, um, and, uh, basically, uh, make sure that, uh, we, uh, either build the IT system or the product or the process or, or whatever. And then, you know, looking back on it, we, we were basically just crossing our fingers and, and hoping that this, uh, IT system or product or process would end, uh, land well with, uh, with the business and it would, uh, fulfill all our hopes and dreams. Um, unfortunately, uh, it turned out not always to, uh, to be the case. Uh, and, you know, looking back on it, I can see that, um, I made several products that, uh, was never sold. Uh, I made several IT systems that, uh, that no one ever used. And so you could certainly, um, uh, question whether we actually realizing the benefits or maybe you didn't actually need to question it because obviously, uh, obviously we didn't. But, but, uh, in either case, I was sort of brought into, uh, an office. I got a big, uh, pat on the back from, uh, from, uh, from my boss and saying, you know, well done Rasmus because you managed to complete this IT system at the, uh, uh, expected budget and, uh, on the time and, uh, with the features that, uh, that we wanted. And so I was just off to the next project. But, you know, uh, looking back on it, if you want to be, uh, a part of that, uh, horrific statistic that we, uh, showed in, in the beginning, this, uh, this is, uh, the way to do it. So, uh, if you want to maximize, uh, your benefit realization, uh, we, uh, we suggest, uh, uh, to look at sort of the, the full benefit realization process. And, um, what we do is that we, uh, we hang on to the purpose because that is still super, super important. And it's such the overall direction for, uh, for the project. But instead of just jumping to deliverables, we, uh, we then ask, okay, if, uh, if this is the purpose, what, uh, what, uh, what benefits are we, uh, are we then chasing? And sometimes, um, uh, I use an example, uh, with, uh, a small optimization projects or efficiency projects because all organizations have those. And so if the purpose is that, uh, you want to be, um, more effective, uh, then maybe part of that project could be that we want to, uh, optimize our procurement department. Uh, and in that case, if that's sort of the, the purpose, then, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the benefits could be that, that we want to free up, uh, some time in procurement, maybe, uh, for people to, to do some work that we are not, uh, currently doing. And, and, and, um, the next question is, okay, but, you know, we're going to free up some time. That sounds awesome. How are we going to do that? Well, maybe, uh, in this case, it could be that the, uh, procurement process was not very efficient. So by optimizing the procurement process, you could actually, um, free up some time in procurement. And, you know, so far, so good. And then the next question is, okay, you know, how does that actually, uh, affect our good colleagues, uh, in procurement? You know, how, what bigger change will this be for them? And so, um, we, uh, we, uh, we start to consider, okay, uh, you know, is it just, uh, you know, uh, another, uh, another, uh, another screen or another, um, another view in, uh, in their system or, you know, are we turning the, the world upside down or, or, or how big a change is it? And, of course, also, what level of help do they actually need to change their ways of working? And so, if you're only, uh, changing the way a screen looks, then obviously it's a very, very small change. But if you are taking them through sort of maybe 25 years of digital time, uh, then, uh, then it might be a huge difference. So, so having that conversation in the very beginning is, uh, is very important. And then, of course, also, okay, if, uh, that's the change, um, what new, uh, competencies do they need? They might need some process and some, some system, uh, competencies. Um, and then, of course, they also need, uh, probably some, some technical deliverables. We need, uh, a new process. We need to digitalize it and so on and so forth. So that part is still important. But instead of having the, the IT deliverables as sort of the key element of the project, uh, uh, and the, the key question might have been, okay, did you deliver on time, on project and with the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, features that we ordered, then the new key question is, did we manage to help our good colleagues in procurement through this change process in a good manner? And are they now behaving or working in the ways that we would like them to? Because that is what will trigger the benefits that we hope to achieve. And so the focus changes from being sort of solely on the deliverables to did the project actually manage to help our colleagues change the way that they are working. And the cool thing about this process, or at least what we appreciate, is that it's sort of built on a cause and effect relationship. So if you can tick off both the deliverables and the new competencies and the new behaviors, chances are that you will realize the benefits and the purpose. But of course, it also works in a way that if you can't either tick off the deliverables, competencies or new behavior, you probably won't. So in that way, you can see how we are setting us up for success. And you could also break down, okay, if we for some reason are not getting the results that we dreamed of, we can backtrack and see, okay, where did it possibly go wrong? Cool. I would like to also show you some examples. And this is an example from a smaller process optimization project. And what you can see is that, you know, there's purpose, benefits, behavior, competencies, and deliverables here on the top. And then basically, what we just do in the very beginning to design the project right as, you know, one of the first thing we do after we have decided to do the project is to get some of the people who are going to the people who are going to own the benefits into a room and start mapping it out saying, okay, what purposes could we be chasing in this project? And then zooming in on, okay, if efficiency, for example, is a purpose, you know, what could the end benefit be? You know, how much time should we release for other tasks? And what does that depend on? And again, what people in our organization will actually need to change their ways of working in order for this to work? And of course, linking that to what system deliverables are we actually, what do we need to build in order for all this to happen? And so this is usually, you know, how it looks and how we start up projects, designing the project, starting with purpose, and moving to the left to, benefits, benefits, and benefits, and deliverables to get sort of a first sketch of the project. And so this is often the first activity in an analysis phase. And so what we do after that is, of course, figuring out, okay, so what does it really look like? And I know, again, this is a very, very busy slide, but this is just, you know, documenting what we saw before. So again, purpose, benefits, behavior, competencies, and deliverables up here. And as you can see that there's, you know, several purposes and a lot of benefits. So what we want to do is to zoom in for each project and to figure out, okay, what's really key? I mean, what's really, really important? What is it where we want to measure on to figure out whether this project is successful or not? And in this particular project, it was a digitalization of some Danish job centers. And you could actually see that, you know, there were multiple purposes here. You could both do something cool for employers and for people seeking a job. But in the end, when we sort of really asked, okay, what's really, really important for you? Then what was really, really important was that they could actually free up some time. And again, as with the procurement example, it was due to a process being optimized. And again, the key group of employees that would be affected would be sort of the job center employees who were really going to need to change their ways of working in order for this to work. And of course, again, that they had the needed competence, which was key. And that was also linked to sort of a few key deliverables. So in that way, we got sort of a benefits realization highway through the benefit map. And again, you know, the benefit map. And again, you know, I'm from a business school in Aarhus. So originally, my default was to measure everything. But that would take a very, very long time. So zooming in on what's really important, and only measuring what is it that is key to our success and only measuring sort of the key benefits and behaviors with the key employees that that are crucial in order for us to succeed. That is the lesson that we have learned. That's how we need to do it to make sure that we don't boil the ocean and measure everything. And again, the way we measure it, I mean, we want to do it as easy as possible. So what you can see here is, you know, this is, you know, basically just a table. And you can see, you know, the benefits over here, one, two, three, four, that was the ones that was also visible on the slide here, one, two, three, four. And so the first benefit is that, well, we want to free up some time to other tasks, we will measure it from using data from the new system, the benefit owner is going to be sort of head of the job center. And the baseline was basically zero. zero. And then we measure, you know, how much time are we actually releasing for all the tasks. So, so again, we want to, we want to measure the benefits and at the same time make it as, as easier, as easy and, and, and as little, as cumbersome as possible. And this was just a very, very, very small project. I want to just show you how we can look for a considerably bigger project. And, and, and, and this is for a big program, a large IT replacement at business change. And this was not actually the whole program. It was just one, one major check, track in it. And as you can see, the process is exactly the same. We start out by mapping the purpose over here, and then going further and further to the left, defining, you know, how are these benefits actually, related, what, what, what people, what groups in the organization will be affected, what competencies do they need, and, and in the end also, what deliverables are we, do we need to have in order to make sure that, that we can succeed with this. And I can see that there might be a few comments. I think the first one is, do you have some advice on how to measure new behavior and thus benefits. With behavioral change, it is sometimes difficult to, to prove correlation. And, and, and, and, and yes, it is. And, and I think, you know, in, in order to, to, to measure behavior, that can sometimes be a little bit tricky. But, but sometimes as in the job center case, you can, you can, you know, take data out of the system and see are we actually following the process. And so in, in some cases, it's actually fairly easy. But if you want to, to figure out our, you know, our salespeople actually having the right conversations with, with the customers are, are they using our new sort of sales techniques then, then you might actually go out, need to go out and, and observe. So, you know, are they, you know, doing the right things or, or engaging with the customers in, in the way we want to do it. And I guess, and, and again, that is often, of course, much more, much more costly. So you need to find the right balance about, okay, if you can just pull data out of the system, then obviously we should measure that and we can easily measure it for a long period of time. If it takes a long time to measure, if you actually need to go out and observe or interview people, then we need to be a little more delicate about how we do that and, and find sort of the right compromise between, you know, doing all the observations that we could dream of and, and what is practically possible. Yes. Cool. Thank you for that question. And I think, and I think with that, maybe it's time to, to get you back on stage later. Yes. Thank you, Rasmus. It's a beautiful bridge question about behavior and change because that is what I will be diving into now. So I will just click here. Yes. So first I would like to introduce the two principles that we face, how we approach change on. And the first one is that we are very, very clear that benefits and change are linked. So if we are asking people to do something new, if we're asking them to change behavior, to change their habits, we have to be clear on why. We have to know which benefit is it that it will trigger because otherwise people just won't do it. Right. So it has to be super clear. Why are we doing this? So that's the first principle. The second principle is that it has to be easy to work with change because we think that a lot of the reason why change isn't really fully implemented in many organizations and companies is that it's a little bit fluffy. It's a little bit hard. It has to do with feelings and emotions and people. And so we want to make it easy and more tangible to work with. And the picture I brought here, I just really love because I think it just, it illustrates how we as human beings tend to behave in the real world, because this is a picture that I've taken in the beautiful Danish town city, just outside of Copenhagen, where some people have thought, what if we pave the road? What if we make it super easy and smooth and it doesn't get slippery when it's wet? So we pave it. And that's a good thought. And that's what we also often do. So we're doing our projects. Right. But what happens then is that the, oh, am I doing something with the mic? Sorry. We will get it fixed. Thank you. So, all right. Sorry about that. And thanks for letting us know. I hope it's better. Otherwise, let us know in the chat. So, good. Let us know. I'll just keep talking and present that it's working. So, that's also the, the way we need to think about change. We need to make it easy. Because if it's difficult, we'll just do something else. We'll just won't do it. Um, so that's our two principles. It's not great still. It still sounds like Gaston's or studio mic is picking up the sound. We are working on it, but maybe I can just use your mic, Gaston's. Oh, no. No, that's too difficult. You need to come close. Come close. I will use your mic. Oh, I think it's, I don't know. We'll figure it out. All right. Uh, we have a technical facilitator. He's left the building. So, at least the room. So, we, uh, we're, we're finding a way. Right, Vasmus? Um, anyway. So, uh, the way we, uh, we make it easy is to have a quite structured approach to, uh, to change. Um, so just like, uh, Rasmus was, uh, talking about before with, uh, looking into how projects are divided into, uh, to phases. Uh, we also make sure that the change process follow the, uh, the phase, uh, of the phases of the project. All right. Yeah. Are we back? You want to say? Yeah. We're back. All right. So sorry about that. We, uh, we, uh, we, uh, we. The short, uh, of what I just said was we have to make it easy to work with change. Uh, we have to take the fluffiness out of it. We have to apply a structured, uh, approach. So if you didn't hear everything I just said, that's basically, that was my point. Um, good. And I can see, uh, Crescent, that it's, uh, yes, it's working now. Perfect. Um, so anyway. What we do in the analysis phase is that we apply this structured approach. So we always know how do we, uh, get this change process started. So we start with what we call the change workshop. I'll double click on that in just a second. Um, and then based on this change workshop, we get a lot of data. So we can do some analysis on this data that we get, um, and get input to our business case, just like we would if we were working with the deliverables or if we are working with benefits. Then when we get a little bit further into the project, we, uh, we have a lot of activities going on. It's, um, varies a little bit depending on what type of project it is that we're facing, but it is about getting smarter and change, making sure that we plan it, making sure that we test it again in the same way we would as if we were working with deliverables. So, um, and the whole point here is that the more that we do, while the project is going on, the less we need to do afterwards, because what very often happens is that change is something that comes at the end. We do something great in the project. And then towards the end of the project, someone realizes, Hmm, how are people going to learn how to use this, use this? How are they going to sort of get this integrated in the way of working? And then we do a lot of training and change management at the end. Um, and usually at quite a high level, we do a lot of training and change management at the end of the project. So we want to have it built into the project instead. And what we get when we work with change is this way is that we actually get a very, very early idea of how is the new behavior expected to look like. So we actually understand what is it that we're asking people to do. And we also then get an overview of expected change activities, meaning that we get an understanding of how does the project, how does the project need to work with change? What is it that they need to do in order to help people into this new behavior? Based on that, we can estimate the change effort. So we can actually say, all right, if these are the activities we need to do, how many people do we need or how many resources do we need? So we get a quite clear overview of what it is that we are sort of embarking on with this change journey. And that also means that we can plan the effort for each group. So it's tailor made. What we also get here, our objectives is that we get ownership from the benefit owners because they have seen now the connection between the change effort and the benefits that we can can realize. So it's not just now we're not doing change management because it's nice and we want to make it a cool and comfortable journey for our colleagues. We're also doing it to actually get the hard benefits. that we want out of our projects. Then we also get ownership along the managers and we get to create ambassadors. So it's not just the project that are sort of sponsoring or triumphing the change, but it's actually also you can say the real people, the employees who are now championing the change out in the organization, which is much more trustworthy than just the project. And then we have this credible plan that is built with input from real people that have seen how the project will affect them. And the way that this change workshop works is that we gather a lot of people from the real organization who are going to change behavior. So if you remember back to the benefit map that Rasmus showed you, we sort of look at the yellow column in the middle and see who is it that is most impacted by the project. And those are the people we invite into the project. So I can tell you, this is a workshop. It takes five or six hours. And every time we invite for it, people are always like, why do we need to spend almost a full day on this? We have so many other things to do and it's not even our project. And it's only in the early stage. So we get a little bit of resistance in the beginning. But what happens usually is that once they leave this workshop, they're super happy because we ask them how they feel and how they feel. how they want to work and how they want to be helped throughout this project. So it's a really, really cool workshop to do. And the phases of the workshop we go through is that we start by what we call setting the destination. So really what we want to know is what's in it for them, for the people we have invited into the workshop. Because what we have done previously is to look at the benefits for the organization or the department or whatever it may be. So that's more, you can say, the greater benefits. But here we're asking them, so if we succeed with this, what is cool for you? What is it that you're looking forward to? And what we get is things like, well, I'm really looking forward to not clicking so much on my mouse, my computer mouse anymore, because it actually hurts my hand. Or I'm looking forward to working closer with people from HR, because we can see that. So it's what we sometimes call micro benefits. And it's much more motivational than these larger, we can save X amount of million kind of benefits, because you cannot really see how that will impact your daily life. So that's what we start with. And then we describe the behavior. So we have them define what are they doing today. So their current behavior, that's usually very easy. They usually know what they're doing today. And then we have them define what do they think their new behavior will look like. And that can be a little bit fluffy for them, because it's still an early stage of the project. But it's really a strong point here in this workshop, because it gives us some good input to what they would like the new processes to look like. And it also starts building ownership, because you're much more likely to do something that you have been part of designing, than you would be if it was just a project who said you have to work this new way. The next thing we do is that we look to reactions and individual barriers to change. How is it that you would react or can expect to react when you are facing these changes? And then we also look to barriers and the surroundings. And I'll just double click on these two last points, because for the reactions to change, we use this framework by a cool guy called Rick Maurer. He's very American, but he created this really cool framework where you look at different categories or different levels of reactions to change, because we want to understand what is it that you like about the change. We call that level zero with zero resistance. So all the things that they're looking forward to, what is it that's really cool. Then we also ask them, what is it that you don't yet understand? So that's a more logical, rational reaction that's based on actually lack of understanding. So we don't really understand why we're getting this now, or we don't understand the purpose of it, or we don't understand how this is going to impact us yet. But it's not a high level of resistance, it's more a little bit of a hesitant reaction. Then the next point here is that I don't like it. So that's a more emotional reaction. This is where you have understood, or at least you think you have understood what is coming, and you have decided this is not good for me. I don't like it. Either because it will impact my skill level, or who I work together with, or now before I worked very autonomously, and now I get more into a straight jacket of an automated process, or whatever it may be. So that's the level two. The last one, I don't like you, is the highest level of change, and that's what happens if we don't manage the other levels of resistance. resistance. So this is a lack of trust. So this is a level of resistance where we simply lose trust in the project, and we really, really avoid being up there. But we also really, really want to know if there are some people who find themselves in this category. So we spend quite a long time on that. Then the last thing we do in the workshop is to look at the barriers around the person, because we have a tendency to focus so much on the individual. How can we make this person change? Why don't they work in the way that we want them to? When there might be several reasons why they actually can't. So we look at the organizational barriers, the groups, the culture, the organizational structure to see if there's anything there that hinders, or at least makes it more difficult for them to work in the way that we would like them to. And then we also look at the technical barriers, the technology, the physical environment, processes, products, and services to see if there's anything there that hinders it. For instance, here, we had an example with a large medical company that we worked for. They were going to install some new freezers. Currently, they have the freezers at the floor that they were working on. I think it was the fourth or fifth floor. But these new freezers were so heavy that they had to be placed in the basement. And just that, going from the fifth or fourth floor to the basement, was a huge barrier for them actually using the new freezers. So we need to understand the surroundings as well. So that was very briefly, and sorry about the sound, but I hope you got most of it. So, I have one question. Who are the participants of the Change Workshop? The participants of the Change Workshop are the people who are going to change behavior. So the ones who are going to change behavior. So the ones who we have identified as the groups of employees that will be most impacted by the project. So, for instance, if we have a procurement project where we work with the procurement processes, it would most likely be the people who work in procurement that we invite in here. And maybe it will also be the people from IT because they will be the ones monitoring the processes. So we're trying to identify the group of people who will be the group of people who will be most impacted. And then we invite them into this workshop. All right. So that was super briefly about the change. Now I will invite Anna and Christian on stage to talk about how they work with it in Nordlys. So welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting us. My name is Anna and I'm heading up the project portfolio management team in Nordlys. And I'm here today with Christian. Yes. And I'm working together with my colleague, Tom Miller-Nielsen, who couldn't be here today, with implementing the benefit driven or change driven benefit realization. And I also work with the change management on a daily basis in Nordlys. And we're very proud to be asked to come here and share the story about how we've worked with benefit realization in Nordlys, because we still feel like we have quite a journey ahead of us. So please take this as inspiration, as one way of doing this. But we still feel like we have some way to go. So today we would like to talk to you about how we've gone about this in Nordlys. But first, you need the context of our organization and how we are set up. Then we want to talk to you about why we've decided to embark on this journey, why that was important for our senior management. And then go into more details about the choices we've made in terms of the implementation, where we began with three pilots before scaling onto the organization. And then we would like to offer you, before we head off, three pieces of advice that we would have liked to know before we began the journey. All right. And just starting off on how we organized in Nordlys. So we are a member-owned telecommunication and energy group in Denmark. So primarily residing in Jutland. We do have one entity here in Copenhagen. And we are around 4,000 employees. And we will grow soon with adding on Telia, hopefully in the spring of next year. Our portfolio consists of roughly 55 products and seven product teams or agile teams here in this year with a total value of around 800 million. And the way that we are organized is that we have quite strong divisions that are working with various products in Nordlys. So if you have, if you're charging your car through Nordlys, that would be in Nordlys energy division. If you have internet through Nordlys, that would be in our digital business. If you have electricity coming through, that would be in our supply in one business. And if you've got fiber into your house, that's how your internet is coming through. That would be in our fiber net business. We also trade through Nordlys energy trading. And then we have various other smaller entities where we have a sub ownership. So that's a little bit about us. And now I don't know if I did something wrong here. There we go. In terms of the portfolio management in Nordlys, the way that we are doing is the way that we are doing. We are organized is that we are part of the strategy office in Nordlys and we are working across each of these entities. And the way that we work in the PPM and center of competencies is that we work into a decentralized model where we have project offices, PMO offices in each of the divisions. And for the shared functions, HR, finance and so on, we are also acting as the PMO in our team. And we work with these PMO offices in a decentralized model where they work closely together with finance, change managers and strategy consultants to have a clear pipeline of initiatives for the year that they themselves, together with their membership team, decide on embarking on. It's quite important that they, of course, involve IT and other partnerships and knowledge that's needed for the initiative, but they are able to go ahead with their initiative. We then have a governance structure cutting across that all of the PMOs have to apply to and adhere to. And that's coming from our team. And that's structured under what we call PPM form, which is a board of the senior membership, the senior guys from each of the areas. So the group management member from N1, Energie, Fibernet and so on are all present in PPM form, which meets once a month, deciding on the larger, more complex initiatives cutting across all of the areas. So the PPM form, which is a board of the N1, which is a board of N1, which is a board of N1, which is a board of N1, which is a board of N1, which is a board of N1, which is a board of N1. And then have a general, what we call portfolio health view. So they take care of looking at the resource utilization, the change management push and so on, cutting across all of these portfolios. So the initiatives at a division level, the PMOs work with their leadership on, but the PPM form, they really look at the portfolio health of the entirety in N1. So that's a little bit about how we're structured. And now going into benefit realization in N1, that was also coming from PPM form. So they care a lot about our execution power and competency development. So really good project management skills, program management, change management, and so on is very much on their agenda and something that they really want to push in the organization. We've been set up in this model running with project and portfolio management in N1 for the last four years. And what we really saw around two years ago was that a lot of these initiatives we were running weren't really coming out with the benefits that we were hoping to. And the PPM form came to our team and asked if we could have a look at that. And they really wanted three things from this. The first element or the first element of purpose or mission for actually going about this N1 was to realize and document more benefits. So there weren't sort of a doubt in that we were doing the right initiatives for N1 was that they were important and they were required, but it wasn't really clear what the benefits were when we set out. And it wasn't clear if we were really getting them all the way through into N1. The second element was that with such a large portfolio, it was really important that we could have a clear link between the initiatives that we were running and the strategy that we set out to do. So improving the strategic portfolio management also in terms of prioritizing efforts, because I think like you also encounter IT resources are scarce and so on. So we really need to have a good way of prioritizing our initiatives. And then the third element, and maybe this sounds a little bit fluffy, was to ensure a heightened employee satisfaction in N1. So how is it that implementing benefit realization can have an impact on employee satisfaction, you might ask? Well, we think that having a common terminology, a common way of working across our divisions, really means that you are part of a community that works towards the same goals. We also believe that when you are in a project where it's clear what the purpose of that project is, it's really clear what needs to be delivered. And it's really clear what kind of change we need to alter to achieve at what we're hoping to set out to. That's going to create a satisfaction not only for the employees working within the project, but also the organization. So those are the three purposes and the organization who is going to be impacted by this change initiative. So those were the three purposes and ambitions for our PPM form when we embarked on this journey. But like we are taught when it comes to benefit realization, we have to start with a baseline. And we did so as well. Christian, would you talk to us about the baseline? Yes, I will. So starting out last year in the autumn of 2022, we started by analyzing, that was Tom, and I analyzing approximately 50 projects in our portfolio. That was an even split between projects that had already been completed and projects that were in the initial phase. And what we found was that approximately 20% of our projects had economic benefits. And a third of these had actually achieved economic benefits. So it was very much like the numbers that Rasmus presented before. What we found was that we found was that none of the projects had any kind of economic benefits defined. There were a lot of good intention about, want to improve employee satisfaction. We want to reduce our CO2 emission. But none of it was probably baselined and none of it was followed up on afterwards. So what we found was that benefit realization wasn't a part of the the ongoing prioritization of the portfolio simply because we didn't have it. And we didn't have the data to support it either. So we had a tendency to focus very much on the deliverables in the project. So we had this black box situation as well in Norlius. Furthermore, this lack of overview also meant that we didn't have any way to maximize benefits throughout the project lifetime. If we had this view, we could actually focus our energies in the projects on the areas where we could achieve the biggest benefit. So not a good starting point, but a starting point that we presented to our top management in November last year. And together with them, we agreed that we needed to test out this method. We did that with three pilots where we had implement help us out. And we wanted to ensure that this method actually was a good fit for Norlius. Not only in terms of the method itself, but also how it could be adapted to various kinds of projects, both in terms of types, but also in terms of scale. We do small projects, but we also do programs. So we needed to ensure that this method fitted them all. Moving forward to February, we completed three pilots and moved to a larger scale of the method where we involved a larger part of the organization. We included the Norlius. We included the Norlius.com network, so the organizational change management network. And we also started training method specialists. We wanted to be sure that the method was anchored across the entire organization. And to be sure that we had this well anchored, we involved the method specialists early on and trained them up the same way that we were trained, Tom and I. Moving forward a few weeks ago, we went to top management again, and once again, I told them, how is this going? Where are we? And going forward from January next year, the entire organization is actually going to follow this method. You can see at the bottom that we have some system to support this. We have also been revisiting our project model. And the tools that we currently have some system to support this. And then the tools that we currently have in our toolbox. And then we, of course, have the change aspect of it as well, because this is a huge change for our organization. So we need to be sure that the people are understanding why we are doing this change and understanding how they have to operate in this new situation. So a bit about the three pilots that we did. You can see the details in the bottom here, but three very different projects. One of them was a program, exit in the middle. And then we have the small project netbox and GIS as well. But all in all, three very different projects. And what we found was that it it was an excellent fit, this method for all types of projects and programs. We needed to adapt the method to the larger programs where instead of just one benefit workshop, we had several. And the same with the change workshop, where you can sometimes need to have multiple change workshops in order to be sure that you have all the affected group represented. Some of the learnings that we got out of this was that first of all, it's it's it was an eye opener for for all the stakeholders in the project. These projects were all well underway when when we got involved. So it was a bit of a catch up. But what surprised us was that a lot of the projects actually got a lot sharper in their focus and got a lot sharper in their focus and got a better picture of the purpose they were serving and what kind of benefits they were actually delivering. And following the logic of course also which behavior needed to be changed to ensure that the benefits were achieved. It was the same with the change workshop where they knew, the project knew that this was going to be a change, a large change. But just how big a change was and how it affected various parties in the process was new but it highlighted the most important aspects of it and ensured that the effort could be placed in the right places. So all in all, they got a lot out of doing this. These pilots or participants by being pilots and we continued with the scaling plan because of the feedback we got from that. And Anna, you'll tell us a bit more about implementing and scaling. I will. And before I say we have a question that I think is for you. So who are typically the ones chosen to be method specialists? So to ensure that it's again well angered, we had dialogues with the various PMOs out there and we have a lot of people who are the head of the head of PMOs because we found it to be logical to place the ownership of the method and thereby also the method specialists within the PMOs. What we found was that some PMOs didn't have the resources but they wanted their project managers to be method specialists. And that's another thing that's really good about this method is that you don't have to be a specific role to drive these kind of workshops and the work surrounding it while being a method specialist. It is an advantage if you have some degree or some understanding of project management in general, both when it comes to the benefit workshop and the change workshop. But it's not a requirement in my opinion. When we look at the change workshop, it is of course also a benefit if you you are working as a change manager because you have some extra tools that you can use and you have more experience in asking the right kind of questions. But the method in itself is so strong that it doesn't matter where your starting point is. You can learn the method and you can apply the method. I agree. So talking a little bit about how we then scaled it from the three pilots that were very successful and where PPMForm said that yes, we're very interested in in continuing the journey and trying to scale this into the organization. So we went from three pilots in specific areas to having 16 projects cutting across the divisions that you saw before. And what we also decided coming out of the three pilots was that we needed to find a way within our team to staff up and kind of have a very structured approach to how we wanted to work with it. So Christian and Tom, who was mentioned before, were the two dedicated profiles from the COE, from the Center of Excellence, and so our team working towards the organization. And I think having two very passionate people that really believe in this and who can really drive this into the organization is really required because in the beginning it is a big push effort and you really need to have one or two profiles that can really tell the story of why this is important. And in general, communication and anchoring, yeah, this into the organization has been pivotal for us. So we also added communications profiles to the team who's been working not only in ensuring that the things after the workshop has been anchored, but also made sure that we've had communication efforts towards the different teams in Norley. So change managers, project managers, strategy profiles, et cetera, leadership as well. What we've also done was to anchor the benefit categories to how we're working with the strategy. So being placed in the strategy organization in Norley, I was able to go to my colleague who is heading up how we work the theory of strategy in Norley and make sure that there was a clear link between the categories of benefit and how they work in the strategy. And then one of the last elements in terms of how we've been organized was the daily coordination in the core team. So Tom and Christian, our communications profile and myself have had daily coordination and it's been done through kind of an agile setup where we've had two stand-ups each week working in a planner board, kind of marking down all of the tasks that we had to do, including also where we encountered change in the organization. So the whole change management aspect was also anchored into the daily coordination. So if Tom had been in a workshop and heard something from a senior leader around benefit realization or if we had had one of our meetings in the organizational change community and there had been something around benefit realization, we were able to coordinate that daily in the team and made sure that either myself or Tom or Christian or others in the organization could help drive those conversations so that any time that we heard anything, we were able to mitigate it. So a lot of coffee has been drunk in this process of driving benefit realization in Norley. In terms of the efforts mentioned, we went from three pilots to 16 scaling projects this year and then there's been a lot of focus on developing the competencies of the method specialists, of our change managers and project managers in general. And just one example of competency development we had to add was around facilitation. So not only do you need to know about the benefit realization methods, but you also need to facilitate a room of maybe quite senior people when you're doing these workshops. So we've also had our method specialists go on an external training in terms of facilitating and being able to sort of take, yeah, hold the room because you might have senior leaders that have negative thoughts and so on that they are not afraid to share. And that's also been an element that we've added. And then in general, tools, systems and governance processes cannot be stressed enough. So as we've kind of grown this, it's also been clear that we have quite strong method specialists that are quite eager to run and they can only do so if we've got the tools and systems in place and that we have a very clear governance on how to work with that. And if I might add here, we actually looked at how we linked this method or the findings towards the strategy as well. So we went in and redefined our approach to projects and the governance surrounding projects. So we made some very clear decisions on when do we want to do the benefit workshop and when do we want to do the change workshop and what kind of governance surrounds this to ensure that people actually follow the new process. So we put up some gates to ensure this new behavior were actually achieved. Exactly. And then the last point on management, I was a good fortune of having the group management members in this PPM forum every month has been a way where we've really been able to activate our executives in terms of sponsorship. And I think we cannot stress that enough how important that has been. So now we're in a situation where when we have just had benefit realization workshops and our IT organization actually working very clearly with the strategy and how to drive that into initiatives. And the group management member there, our CIO, said there are no excuses from any of you in terms of being able to find the time to join these workshops. That's simply a prerequisite. So that's something we can't stress enough. In terms of roles and mandates, that's also been something we really need to discuss because there's no doubt that when we work with benefit realization, that will follow not only in the project lifetime but also afterwards. And that means that these benefit owners are going to have a quite different role. So in our previous model, when the project closed and we were sort of tallying up the benefits, we could say, oh, there was a loss there, but that's on the project manager. And then the project manager wouldn't care because he or she was on to the next initiative. With this model, the benefit ownership will be until the last benefit has been realized. And that might be one or two years after the project closes. So that also means that in terms of roles and mandate, there's been quite a change. And therefore, we've also done quite significant work around our steering committee training where benefit realization is now an integral part of that. And we've also launched a handbook that all steering groups receive when a new initiative has been started up so that they're clear on their roles and responsibilities. And that's something that in the next year, we're going to continue training each of our leadership groups and how to be the good steering group also when it comes to benefit realization. Then I think we will talk a little bit about how we've moved from the push that I mentioned into the pull of after the summer holidays. So let's just jump to the next slide. Yes. Yeah. So in the beginning, let me just show you here. There's a bit of latency on the mouse. In the beginning, there was only Tom, my colleague, spearheading this initiative. And he did a lot of the stakeholding work to ensure that there was actually a buy-in to even kick off this method and this pilot phase. So he started, I think, already in 21 to actually work with the different members of the PPM forum. And then he onboarded me and at the same time, we onboarded implements where there was a minor drag on us in the beginning because people didn't know what this was about yet. They had some idea. And we were only doing three projects at the time. So it was easy for us to keep up with. And then suddenly we started to experience this increase in the need to push the organization to actually accept it. And that was after we got the approval from top management. Around the same time, Implement felt that we were ready to stand our own two legs and test this out. So we onboarded our communication partner in this and pushed even more suddenly. That was around the summer holiday. We were starting to feel a bit tired. We had been pushing for six months now to get the organization to accept this method and really adopt it in their division. But there was only a few who were really interested in it. So those were the divisions that we were focusing on and where we were training method specialists. Then after the summer holiday, it shifted. Suddenly there was a huge pull from the entire organization to actually get us out there and present this method to facilitate workshops and to ensure that their projects actually followed this new method. So that was a big change for us. And the essence of this is that you will have to push. But suddenly it will shift towards a pull situation. And you have to be ready for this because we weren't. And suddenly we had a lot of projects and a lot of workshops that we had to do. Meanwhile, we also had to ensure that the documentation was made. And that we were educating a method specialists. You can see there's a downward trend on the pull. But that is because we are actually ready to let the new method specialists work with this method out in their respective divisions. But we also see a future bump when it comes to the management push pull. And none of the projects that we have done so far has gone into the benefit realization phase. And we expect that once they do that, we are going to get a lot of pull from management to support them. Because suddenly the benefits they promised early on in the projects, they have to deliver now. And there's going to be a lot of stakeholder management in the phase on how are they going to report this? How are they going to handle the benefits they promised in the beginning? Yeah. And just a note on that, there's a small keyhole. Do you want to just talk to that one? Yeah. So quite early on, and that was in a few divisions, we experienced this very focused interest in actually applying the method. And we wanted to be sure that this method was rolled out in the correct manner. And the people who are actually applying the method also know what they're doing and do the full scope of the method in order not to water it down and create a mismatch of understanding between what the method can do and how it might be applied if you don't do it correctly. So the people who reached out to us and said, hey, just give me the PowerPoint and I can do it myself, we tested that out in a few situations. And what we found was that people very quickly went back to just defining deliverables as a purpose. So we decided, well, we're going to do this. And of course, that also increased the push and pull on us afterwards. But a decision that we're very happy about and making sure that this is going to be implemented in a structured way and where we really get the benefit out of what the method can do. There's also a question from kind to you, Christian. Would you repeat the training the method specialist received to enforce that role? Yeah. So we made a specific program for the method specialist simply because we need to ensure that there are enough method specialists to actually drive all the projects and programs that we have in the organization. And what they do or what they get through is we want them to participate in at least two workshops where we facilitate and they are participating as observers. And then the third, they will be the facilitators and we will be the supporters. On the sideline, they have to do the same work that we do with specifying and having the dialogues with the benefits of the organization. So we have to do the business owners between sessions and all the work that is besides the workshops. We also had a specific day both for project managers in this method where we introduced them an entire day we had with them. And we had a day with the method specialist where we really did a deep dive in how do you act as a method specialist? What's the different roles? How do you incorporate with PMO when you're a method specialist? What about the benefit owner or the PMO? So there was a lot of different things that we needed to ensure that they had an understanding on. Yeah. So we built actually a small curricula also in terms of things to read and the rules and mandates. So that's maybe something we can share afterwards if that has interest. And then there's a question. Did you see some kind of aha moment in the organization which caused the shift towards the pool? I think it's a combination of multiple things. First of all, we had enough momentum in the organization to ensure that people understood the value of it. That more and more people were talking about it. There was reference to benefits and change workshops. And it kind of popped up different places in the organization. But I think the biggest pull probably happened because the organization realized this is not something that's going away. The top management is really serious about this. And come 1st of January, we actually have to be ready for this. So how do we get ready for this? So I think that was the... Yeah. Then I think I will jump to the three pieces of advice and then the final question. Yeah. So is this now part of your onboarding program for new hire? So yes, it is. So we do offer some onboarding modules out of our team. So our benefit realization is part of that. And then we also have obviously the program for the method specialist when you are added on. We do have some areas that don't have method specialists yet. So that's going to be something that we're going to continue doing. Yes. And then three pieces of advice that we would have liked to know before we had embarked on the journey that we will offer to you. And please, as mentioned, take it as inspiration and make this your own journey. Executive sponsorship, we can just not stress enough. That's been really key for us that they've really, bought into the concept and they've really been eager to drive this into the organization. And then investing time and effort into educating stakeholders during the pilot stage has also been something that we would really mention here. We really anchored the role of method specialists here. We really anchored what the finance team plays in terms of this concept, what the change managers, how are they connected, and also the strategy consultants. So really investing some time in making sure that those roles and mandates are clear in the pilot stage has been pivotal for us. And then the last element, be prepared to handle resistance. So nothing comes easy. And I think that's also why we wanted to have the push-pull slide on here for you guys to understand that for a very long time, it's going to seem quite cumbersome and you're going to think that nobody will ever really buy into this concept. But if you really handle the change when it happens, drink all the coffee and have all those conversations on the hallway, you will see that the way that the that it will change from a push-pull. And I think that's that's all from us here in Norlys. Very, very cool. So I'm just going to ask Rasmus to move this table because I'm too pregnant. Yes, yes, I will do that. Yes, thank you. Cool. And now I'm hoping that the mic works for all of us. Yes, we've been told that it does. So that's really nice. So if you have any questions, please put them in the chat. We will share the slides. Don't worry, you'll get them. We will also draw 10 lucky winners of Rasmus's book. So we will contact those winners on email and let them know that they won and ask them whether they won the book in English or in Danish. That's an option that you get if you win. And then I would take advantage of your offer to share. Yes, please. So that's to you. We will share that. Yes. Yes. So we will put that out in the email as well. And then if you would like to know more, we will we're currently sharing a lot of you can see articles and stuff on LinkedIn. So please follow us there. We also offer a course. It's on site here in Hellerup where we are located right now and close to Copenhagen in the beginning of the next year that you can sign up for. It will be in Danish for now. So it kind of requires some Danish skills. And then we would also really actually ask you for your help because we think we know a lot. Yes. We like to think so. We like to think so. But we also know that we can get a lot smarter. So we have a survey out right now that we will invite you to take. It takes approximately 10 minutes where we can understand a little bit about how do you work with benefits realization out there in the real world? How do you see it? Because that's a great opportunity for us to become even smarter on this method. So we really hope that you will take 10 minutes out of your day to answer this survey. And I'm just looking. My glasses are not working very well. So I have to stand like this. No questions, just appreciative comments. So thank you so much. We have also enjoyed being here today. So I guess we will let you go a little bit early. We will hang around for a few more minutes in case there are some questions being delayed in the chat. But yeah, have a great day out there in the real world, wherever you are. And please reach out if you have any questions or comments also after today. Pierre says, the C-suite team of my company is very focused on economic slash performance related benefits on projects. Do you have any advice on how to change and broaden their perspective on benefits realization? Maybe we should start with you. Yeah, we can speak to that. I think what we really have. I think what our C-suite is seeing is that the benefits that are not economic are usually an early indicator that the economic ones will also be achieved. So that's very much how we use it. Exactly. And that would be my answer as well. If you make the link between the non -economic ones and the economic ones, it's usually easier for them to buy into it, especially the very number focused people. So I think the whole trick is to make sure that we break down the benefits as we explained during the webinar today. Because that is also what gives us a larger certainty that everybody understands the cause and effect relationship. What is it that we need to do in order to get these benefits? And often the C-suite looks at very high numbers, but it's often not really broken down. And it's often not clear what projects are delivering what. So unfolding that is usually a great benefit in itself. Yes. And if I might add here to that, the ability to actually make a better decision when it comes to which projects to prioritize between because you have that overview. Yeah. That's really helpful as well. Indeed. Cool. Agreed. Then I think we will slowly be closing down. But as I said, please reach out to all of us. We think this is a cool topic to talk about. So yeah. Thank you so much for dialing in this morning. Thank you for listening in. Thank you.