Good morning, everyone. My name is Kasper and I once again have the pleasure of welcoming you to this third event in our OnPoint series on transformation, which we have called Unlocking the Full Potential of Your Transformation. And it's so fantastic to see that we once again have over 250 signups and I really do hope that you're all ready to dive into the topic of transformation management. At least I know that I am. And these OnPoint series, they are designed to provide you with a lot of knowledge in a very short time, which means that we have a very condensed format and therefore it will mainly be us talking. However, by the end of this session, we will do a Q&A session. So please, as we go along today, ask your questions in the chat and then we'll try to pick up as many of them as we can by the end. And with all of the practicalities out of the way, I think it's about time to do the real introductions. And normally, I would actually have my usual sidekick, Alexander, here next to me. But unfortunately, he has lost his voice to a flu this morning and apparently it was too tall of an order for him to actually learn sign language within just two days. But luckily, we have a guest star today, Rasmus Rydder, which is the real star of today. Thank you very much, Kasper. Rasmus, would you care to introduce yourself a bit? Yes, yes. My name is Rasmus Rydder. I'm a partner and implementer. I've been working here for almost 14 years. I'm heading up our strategy execution department. But the real reason, I guess, that I'm here today, Kasper, is that I'm also a benefits realization nerd to the extent that I've actually spent weekends and holidays and evenings writing books about it. So it's really my big professional passion and I'm delighted to be invited here as your special guest star. That's perfect. We have you because benefits is a big part of transformation. So we're looking forward to hear everything on that. Yes. Yeah. And with that said, I think it's time to do the purpose and the agenda for us to be here today because it is, of course, to continue our journey on large scale transformation and more specifically, we'll deep dive on the impact dimension of our best practice framework. So we'll have three points on the agenda. And first of all, I'll just make sure that you are all up to speed with the series and that you know what this framework is all about if you didn't participate in the last two events. Then we'll use the majority of the time actually deep diving on this build for high impact this discipline. And then, as I mentioned in the end, we'll do a short Q&A session. So please again, post all of your questions in the chat and then we'll pick them up when we get there. But before we dive into the actual content, I just want to mention that if you missed the two first events, one on the transformation framework and one of our transformation X-ray, you can still have time to actually catch up. Because after the session today, we'll share the recordings of both this session and those two sessions along with all of the slides if you'd like to see those. So diving into it, implement was actually founded on the ambition to increase the impact and success rates of projects, program and transformation across the globe. And there is still a significant work to be done because fewer than one in four large scale transformation succeeds in delivering the incentive value, the impact and the change that they actually set out to do. Therefore, we believe that it's time to actually rethink how we understand, we design, we drive and execute transformations. And in order to actually increase this number from the 22%, our 25 years of experience working with transformation has taught us that we need to do three things. First of all, we need to increase the impact of the transformation. We need to reduce the time to actually the benefits are realized. We need to do less rework and scope changes. And we need to increase the quality and lower the risk of what we do in our program. Second of all, we need to speed up the progress. We need to have efficient execution. And decision making across what we do. We need to accelerate the learning and the agility in our program. And we need to improve the coordination and collaboration across all of the projects that part of the program. And lastly, we need to strengthen the engagement. Strengthen the engagement. So we have faster adoption of new solutions and new benefits in terms of the receiving organization. We need to increase the stakeholder alignment and also satisfaction of the stakeholders around the program. And lastly, we need to have strong ownership and high motivation, everyone involved in the programs. And the result of our collective experience and insight gained from literally hundreds of transformations is this best practice framework for succeeding with large scale transformation programs. We call it Implement CPM and it's designed around these three dimensions that we see here on the screen. They're equally important disciplines and together they will actually guide you to ensure that your program is both designed for creating the high implementation of the program. So we need to ensure that the high impact that we are going for that the program is set up to continuously drive progress throughout the lifecycle and that the receiving organization is actually engaged to change. Because far too often we see that there is an excessive focus on the execution while the target remain undefined and the change in organization is actually forgotten or left behind. And to truly succeed, our experience show that these three must actually work together as a coherent ecosystem while they're being steered by strong leadership with with resources. And when we fold out this, this framework, we see that each of these three disciplines has three underlying objectives, making it nine in total. And these together function as a high level roadmap for concrete practices to actually increase the transparency and predictability of your program, which we believe is the key lever to actually increase the likelihood of the success of your training. transformation. And fulfilling all of these objectives ensure that your program approach covers your transformation 360 degrees around. And further, it will provide you with a foundation for actually establishing a transformation mindset that is needed with the behaviors and the capabilities required to secure lasting impact and benefits over time. And today, we'll unfold the first discipline in how to actually create the vision and aspiration that is needed, define the benefits and scope and the plan, and then organize for effective delivery, ensuring that we are actually get to get to the place that we want. And our framework unfolds even further because outside of this objective, we have concrete methods that when applied, you can actually fulfill this giving objectives that we are looking at. And these therefore serves as the how to guides for actually obtain these objectives. For instance, as we'll see today, when we look at creating the vision and aspiration, this is all about setting the design impact and designing the target operating model for the target operating model for it. If we look at, for instance, engage to change, the focus here is on the strategies for stakeholder management, change management, ensuring that we have efficient communication and evaluation of the change readiness and current capabilities of the receiving organization. And lastly, we have the final level of the framework, which contains a comprehensive range of concrete tools and templates that actually support these methods, ensuring that we get efficient implementation. These are tested in practice, and they aim for actually streamlining our efforts with consistency and facilitating collaboration across the entire program organization. And we work with the TPM or transformation in many different ways, and that depends on the lifecycle of the transformation. For instance, we help initiating and ramping up programs. We help establishing and strengthening PMOs, and we also build transformation capabilities in total. And sometimes we actually do this by combining combining them. But always, we have one objective in mind, and that is actually transferring the knowledge to the organization so that it's able to actually run independently along the way. And last time, we specifically unfolded how we work with ongoing programs. Here, we talked about our transformation X-ray, which helps you to identify the current maturity of the transformation, looking at these three dimensions that we have in the framework, ensuring that we have a clear overview of the current capabilities of the program management approach, and also how we transform across the program. And furthermore, it helps us to set the ambition for the desired end state, so after the transformation is actually done. And finally, we can create a strategic roadmap towards the ambition and closing this value gap between where we are now and where we want to go. And in this, we help designing and scoping and executing the concrete improvement initiatives that I actually needed to go where we want to go. And today, we'll turn our focus to the impact dimensions of the first, the red dimension of this. Because we often see that unsuccessful transformation tend to leave the impact and the change dimension actually in the dark. So what we'll see here on the screen is typical issues that we encounter often in the early stages of transformation. However, common for them all is that they, or their consequences will compound over time if you don't do anything about them in due time. So first of all, we have that the vision, the scope of the scope are often fuzzy. Teams fill the gap with the different, different, different minds, which create rework and misaligned expectations. There's a short term progress is, is chased at the expense of long term planning. So we go fast to show movement and then pay the price later when the dependency and capability by the end. The program is organized so it's not set up for effective collaboration so that the handoff and decision actually stalls. The teams are often staffed for availability rather than accountability or capabilities which slows the quality and adoptions of the, of the actual changes. And then we have promises of benefits and value, but the real measure of these, these benefits, there's no baseline, there's no named owner and there's no measurements of plan. So that value actually just from, from day one. And you might recognize one or two or three of these in your organizations today. But keep those in mind and then we'll, we'll try to get back to those. Because why we are deep diving into the build for high impact is that this dimension actually addresses these pains at the root, making the visions, the benefits explicit, designing the target operating model for value and facing the work over these waves in terms of plans and, and roadmap and having a living benefit case for benefit tracking. And in other words, we need to start right to keep making it right throughout the transfer transformation. So actually going into the build for high impact dimension, we have these three overall, um, underlying elements as, as introduced before. And the build for high impact dimension is all about steering the transformation towards the value that we want to create. And because very often we see the transformation actually don't just go wrong. They actually already start wrong. So we need to start, start at the right place and having a shared picture of where we want to end up is a big enabler for success. And we believe that the structure of the program must follow the strategy and the vision that we set out to do. So this is all about setting the vision and the benefits that we're going for is about designing and defining the scope and approach that we, that we need to, to carry out. And then by the end, of course, adding the right capabilities. to be able to actually carry out this, uh, over the time of the program. And we start at the very top, uh, where we have the program vision and a compelling program vision actually defines the targeted in state and the why of the transformation. It should be, uh, be seen as the fixed north start that guides you and all of the stakeholders throughout the entire transformation. Because solution will change because we get visor over time, but the vision should actually stay fixed. a fixed throughout the transformation lifecycle. And one critical success factor is actually establishing a clear and urgent case for, for a change this burning fat bomb, uh, burning platform as you might call it early on in the transformation. Because if there isn't a significant reason for, and vision for driving the transformation, the effort can actually lose its justification and momentum in the organization. So the importance of the vision and its communication cannot be overstated. Leaders must emphasize this vision, uh, constantly because evidence actually show us that the transformation are up to six times more likely to succeed when the leadership is aligned around one message and that this core story is clear and repeated by the, by the overall sponsor of, uh, of the transformation. And we have seen that, uh, uh, this program vision is actually a prerequisite for a success overall, and without it, we don't believe that a program could be a warranted, but, uh, just having it, uh, isn't a enough. Um, but when you have it, uh, you will be able to actually align it to the enterprise strategy that is created. You'll have a shared goal setting the mobilization of the entire program in the same direction. Furthermore, we will see in just a bit that it links the scope, the benefit and the program and reporting together as one system, as Rasmus will get to. Then it supports the decision making so that it's focused on values rather than actual deliverables. And lastly, it actually enables us to reverse engineer the transformation lifecycle from the desired end state to where we are today. So we are actually able to have more accurate estimation and planning of what we do in the transformation. But having the vision is not enough. It must both be validated and widely understood in the transformation and also the program. And often we actually see that it is not because far too often we see that the vision is either changing or even being defined during the transformation which creates a lot of rework. We tend to assume that the vision is aligned and agreed even though it has not officially be signed off by anybody. We spend far too little time on clarifying and understanding and testing the ambition on which these vision are actually built. And finally, the vision is often confused with the actual solution or the missability and the benefits or the value that we are going for in the event. And some of the tools that we actually use to counter this is for instance, our mapping of assumption in assumption maps where we get real information on the impact and uncertainty of the key assumptions on which our vision is actually built. And then we use a program input case to get real and measurable input on the impact which proves as the justification for even starting up the program in the start. And together these elements provide the input for the next part of the framework which Rasmus will tell you all about. Yes. Thank you very much, Caspar. With the vision or the Northern Star in place, we are good to go in terms of defining the benefits, the scope and the plan for the transformation. The vision should, of course, be linked to the overall strategy of the company or the organization because transformations are last endeavors and they are often key levers in order to make sure that we realize our enterprise strategy. So, of course, that link is critical. But assuming that's in place, then the next step is that we can start to materialize the vision into both the vision of the organization. The focus of what we are. The benefits. The benefits and the target operating model. And we will go into more details on both of these things in just a minute, but but I think it's important to stress that the arrow between them is extremely important because they will usually be a lot of back and forth between figuring out what benefits we are going to realize and then what's actually possible in terms of and cost of feasibility when we are looking at the new target operating model. But when we get that in place, we can also start looking at other things, such as how are we actually going to make this transformation happen. So with the target operating model and the benefits in hand, we, of course, have a good idea about the scope. That's basically the target operating model. We can start discussing the overall waves of the transformation. So the big phases in which we're going to deliver value, the roadmap and the plan for each wave, and of course, the business case. And last, but certainly not least, we are then able to also define when are we actually realizing what benefits and also do performance management of the entire transformation. And that may seem a little boring to you, but it's certainly not. And we will deep dive into that at a later event. But having this in place, having sort of the overall elements for what we need to define in order to get a good start on our transformation, we will deep dive into the benefits in just a second. But before we do that, I think it would be helpful to just get a common understanding of where we are in terms of actually delivering on our transformations. And being a bit of a benefits realization nerd, for many years, I believe that I kind of knew. But last year, we then decided to go from kind of knowing to actually knowing. So we made a big survey. It's called Predicting Transformation Success and Failure. And the key question from that survey is what's on the screen now. And in case that some of you are not looking at the screen, then I'll just read it out loud. And it says, overall, what percentage of the benefits potential do you think your organization is realizing in your transformations? And every time I look at the data that's in front of you, I can't figure out what's worse. If it's the fact that out of the 145 respondents, 18% of those said that in their organization, they are realizing less than 20% of the actual benefits potential from their transformations. That's thought provoking. But maybe it's worse that only 3% say that they actually hit the mark and we are sort of in the range of realizing the benefits potential from their organization. Maybe that's even worse. And imagine going to your CFO in your organization saying, oh, we have this big expensive transformation. We have all these nice benefits. But there's a 3% chance that we will actually realize them all. And if we are sort of average, what you can do is you'll basically take your business case, tear it apart, and then we will probably realize half of it if we are lucky. I think that could be a difficult conversation. And I think if we should take one thing from this survey, then that is that there is a substantial room for improvement. So with that in mind, the next question is, of course, what is it that we need to do in order to get this right? And often what we say organizations do is that they actually kind of get the transformation vision right. You can also call it a purpose or the overarching idea, but usually that is actually in place. What usually goes wrong is that we then instead of unfolding this vision, then we go straight to program and deliverables and start discussing from which vendors should we buy the CRM system or this new fantastic AI tool. How are we actually going to get that in place with our system landscape instead of actually unfolding the entire transformation? So if you want to be part of the whole thing, then jumping straight to the project program deliverables are the way to go. If you want to be part of those 3% that actually make it, then we need to unfold the program from the very beginning, starting, of course, with the transformation vision, moving on to benefits and basically benefits falls into four categories. It's either that we want more revenue, we want to do something about cost or efficiency, we want to be compliant, or we want to have a greater level of stakeholder satisfaction. And especially in large transformations, everybody's hopes and dreams can usually be built into the vision. So it's extremely important that you have a conversation with senior management about what are the actual benefits that we are going to deliver? what are the most important ones? Because otherwise, you will have a very big problem actually handling the scope of the transformation. So having that conversation with senior management is important. And we also need to look into the effect that this will have on the organization. And now we're also kind of touching about the new operating model. But we need to also get an alignment from senior management, management on what is it actually that we are going to do in terms of changes to the organization. So everybody has an idea about that, both in terms of, you know, what's the change actually going to be, but also how much are we going to invest to make sure that this change will actually happen. And then if they don't have that much time, and they usually don't, then the program office can probably figure out what new competencies we need to actually deliver in this new setting. And of course, last but not least, we still need to figure out what to do about the CRM system and which window we are going to use. But that is the last things that we are discussing, not the first. So getting the design right is a key enabler for transformation success. And we have already kind of touched upon it, but but but what you can see here is what a trend target operating model can actually look like and what you can see sort of in the in the circle is much of the elements that actually go into the deliverables processes, new products and services, new technology, I mean, the CRM system, new office spaces, data and information, what needs to be available, what reports do we need to have? How is how are we going to be organized? And then there's also an element about stakeholders, not the that the people actually affected by the transformation, but, but other stakeholders, both internally and externally, we need to be on top of that. And that is sort of basically the key elements in the deliverables of the transformation. And then we have the individual, the people in the in the center. And of course, we also need to figure out if we're going to work in this new target operating model, what's our behaviors then going to be and what change efforts do we need to have in place? to make this work? And, you know, getting the benefits right and getting the target operating model, right? That's that's a big task. But once we have done that, then we will also be able to to figure out the scope. That's basically again, the target operating model. But we will also be able to then start to to figure out, okay, what big chunks are we going to chop this into? How can we realize the benefits in the benefits in waves? What do we need to have in place to to realize benefits after each wave? What should the roadmap and plan for each wave looks like? And of course, when we have all that in place, we can also build the business case when we know when the cost will incur and when we will actually realize the benefits. So, so that is sort of the the key elements in order to get a good start on your transformation. And now, you'll be back Caspar to tell us a little bit about the next steps. Thank you for that, Rasmus. So the last part of our framework here is, of course, how to organize for delivering effectively. And we we overall have three elements or two elements in that. First of all, looking at the program organization and then also how do we then staff the various roles of the program organization. And what you see here today. What you see here today is a program organization or a simple version of of that where we have divided into two levels. First of all, we of course, have the program level where you see the program sponsor at the top. We have a program steer code that connects the business owner, the tech owner, if you have one of those. And of course, also the benefit owner, which is very important as Rasmus just just told. And then you have the program manager in the middle that is actually the one that ensures that we have the connection of the of the of the of the of the entire organization across. So managing dependencies and and also looking at ensuring that we have the various the various scopes for each of the projects in place. Then we underneath, of course, have the project level where we have the various different projects that are organized. into their individual scope. We have a project steer code for each of the projects and then of course we have a project manager that operates the day to day operation of each of these these projects. And then we of course ensures that we have a that we have a flow of information going both up up from the from the projects to the program level, but also a escalation of of issue if there are some of that and then distribution on information going down from the from the from the program all the way from the program sponsor and the program steer code. And then of course very important is also the reference groups that we can have on various levels here both going into the program sponsor going into the program manager, but also on the project level where we need to include the business and the users that that goes into this and also like the controls and people functions and it could be also also elements from the technology and data side that that are important to actually see the changes that are implemented from from the from the programs that we are that we are doing. Lastly, we want to start for the desired outcome rather than actually because of the availability because as we see it availability in itself is of course not a skill set, so we need to look at the way that we are actually staffing the various roles within the program so we can get the benefits that we are looking for. And first of all, we need to list the roles and the skills needed so that we design and develop and test the solutions now and can run them and realize the benefits after the implementation. Then we need to run a gap analysis so we are assessing the current capabilities against the required one to identify these gaps. And then we need to decide how to actually close these by either building or borrowing or buying or even backfilling the business as useful if that is needed to get the right people that we need. And in the end, of course, we need to then staff the capabilities per each wave, meaning that we will assign people who possesses the required capabilities and then secure their capacity and confirm their allocation and responsibility and create sufficient onboarding even before the wave starts. So that ensures that we actually staff the program with the people needed for the transformation. And with that said, I think we'll go into the Q&A session. And if you haven't already put in your questions, please do so and then we'll switch the setting and get back to you in a minute. So moving to the soft chairs here. I hope that you have time to put in your question. Otherwise, do it now. But Rasmus, last year you conducted this big survey on benefits in transformation. And I think that the numbers, they speak more or less from themselves, right? They do. But why do you actually think that so many of organizations and programs actually fail to deliver on their benefits? Well, I think that there are several reasons. And I think sort of the first and extremely important reason is that we need to get the fundamentals in place. And it can sound a bit boring, but we really need to do good analysis of the benefits that we hope to realize. Because if we don't do that, because if we don't have a good foundation for understanding the benefits that we are trying to realize, we can't manage them. And especially in transformations that can have a long duration, then we need to be aware that benefits will change over time. And if you're not careful, then benefits will just leak from your business case over time. And we will not be able to manage that if you don't have a good foundation, a good estimate, on which to constantly use that as a baseline. And basically, we won't be able to also see what new opportunities will we need to seize or what other measures do we need to put in place to actually realize the benefits that we should. So managing the benefits along the transformation or during the transformation will not be possible if you don't do a little legwork in the beginning to actually get good estimates. That's the one reason. And the second reason. And the second reason is that large transformations are often expensive. And they are also hoping to realize considerable benefits. And if you ask any senior manager in an organization to own benefits that are super loosely defined, they will rightfully say no. Because you know, as a senior manager, that if you are the owner of a a sizable benefit, it can be a sizable benefit, and you don't deliver on it, it can be career disturbing. So if we don't have a good foundation for estimating benefits and a good understanding of the assumptions that is underneath it, then we cannot ask anyone to own it. And again, what we also saw in the survey was if we don't have clear management ownership, it is unlikely that we realize the benefits. So what will your main advice be for programs that are probably ongoing now? Because most of these organizations, I assume, knows that benefits is important. So how do we ensure that they actually take it into account if they haven't already done it? I think the key message here is that it is never too late. So if you haven't done the late work that you kind of should have in the beginning, getting the vision in place, understanding the benefits, understanding the level of change that this will require from your organization, then right now is the right time to do it. Because in some cases, you might realize that, you know, it's maybe a good idea to stop the program. In other cases, you will realize that we need to put more effort into the change element. And other times you realize that you're sitting on a gold mine and you really, really need to keep doing what you're doing. So if you haven't done your legwork in the beginning, my best advice is start now. Yeah, makes sense. And Jens from the chat, he has experienced that many transformations fail to actually understand and act on the cultural journey that is part of it. And where the materialization of the benefits happen. So how do you assess and baseline the existing cultural aspects of the change? I think that's a super good question. And I think that he's touching upon some of the most important and most difficult elements in making transformation succeed. I think it's very important that you try to get a good understanding of where your organization are and then understanding which parts of the organization is it that actually needs to do a change. And it can both be, you know, process change, but it could also be cultural change. And then you need to figure out how is it that we are going to help the people in each department through this change. And again, it sounds like hard work, and it kind of is. So it's very important to get that understanding of, you know, what's the behavioral gap in the beginning for each of the departments that are affected by this transformation, and going to work in a different way. And then use that to get an understanding of what is it that we need to do in order to help them through this. And so it's, it's, it's work, and it's a serious effort. And it can be almost as expensive as the CRM system or whatever take elements that you have. So taking that serious from the very beginning is key. Yeah. And there's like a follow up on this, especially on the culture, because I think you also indirectly speaking about it, because like, how do we ensure that we actually build up the competences that are that are needed? I think some of it we'll we'll look at it at a later point when we get to the third element of the framework, but I guess you also have a have a point on that. Yeah, I think if the reason why we distinguish between competences and behavior is because that you can have the competences without actually doing the behavior. So so you can know how to do things, but then you just choose not to for whatever reason. So I think that the getting the right competences are, in most cases, the less difficult part. So we just just need to figure out, okay, what capabilities are our organization lacking, and then do a a good training program to make sure that everybody gets the competences that they need. Sometimes the more difficult part is the cultural element saying, okay, we actually able to do what we should do, but we just don't do it. For whatever reason, right? And that's where sort of usually the hard work lies in getting the transformations to work. And I guess there's also is a direct correlation between the capabilities that we are building and also the benefits that you fold it out, right? Unfortunately, if our people don't work as they're supposed to, we won't realize any benefits. So so we will have the shiny CRM system standing and winking at us in the in the background. But if if our if our good colleagues are not doing what they're supposed to do, then it won't matter. Yeah, makes sense. And therefore, for a later deep dive, we'll actually also dive into the to this engage to change where we speak much more about concrete methods and tools and templates to actually implement these these changes. So we have another question here from Sarah. And she's saying that let's say that the transformation program is kicked off way too late and with two short deadlines on to go live. What part of the framework would you say that has the highest priority to get a clarified in the short term? The benefit part? The benefit part, because if you're not on top of that, then you risk just racing ahead and doing an IT system or whatever that that you are doing. And then it will make sure that you will get all the costs, but you won't get the benefit. So so, you know, it seems maybe maybe I'm also repeating myself. But but again, if you're not on top of, you know, the overall vision and the benefits that that should support that everything else becomes very difficult because it's highly likely that you'll be doing the wrong thing. So stop what you're doing and figure out what benefits are we actually aiming for. You might be lucky and, you know, to be able to see that what you're already doing is is perfect. But you might also realize and that happens a lot that you probably need to turn a little bit to the left, a little bit to the right in order to get where we really want to get. And I guess adding on that, we also have the overall point that that, of course, these three dimensions works together and needs to work together. So, of course, so I would actually also argue that it's hard to say that it's one prioritized over the other, because the point is here again that what we mentioned is that the senior management often like presses for actually getting execution and forgetting like why we are doing it and forgetting the organization. But it's back to having the wrong focus from the beginning. So so having the wrong focus on doing what whatever things and we had in our target operating model without actually making sure that it's linked to the to the to the benefits and the behavior that we really want. So without that guiding star and without having materialized that in in in in benefits, we cannot know for sure that we are heading in the right direction. And so we need to understand whether this is the right direction or this. Cool. And then we have another question here from Trine in transformation. It's often easier to align around objectives. However, getting to the identified benefits and agreeing on how to measure and manage them. Yes. What are your advice on not only defining objectives, but also focusing on the on the benefits? But I think I think I think we need to realize that getting on top of the benefits are important and you know, we can we can have a specific session on on this alone. But if you are going to try to do it a little bit brief, then if if if you are like most organizations, there's a cost or effective element in your transformation. Fifty percent of all transformations have that. So so if you have an ambition to save whatever money, whatever money, then we need to figure out, OK, where does that money is going to come from? Is it procurement that's going to procure in a smarter way? Or are we going to, you know, let people go in production? Or, you know, where are those money going to come from? So we need to, you know, put in a significant effort to really understand that and really understand, OK, where the money going to come from or the optimization is going to come from? And what's the organization needs to do in order to make sure that we're going to come from. So that that that that that that happens. And it's it's it's just it's just a lot of work. And and again, we we need especially especially on on revenue and cost. We need to be specific and we need to be specific both on the actual target and the actually performance improvements in the organization that needs to drive that. And needs to be a very, very clear link between these performance improvements in the organization and the actual financial targets. because if we don't do that, it is unlikely again that we will realize the benefits. So I'm afraid the answer is, again, we need to we need to take some of the the structured analytical ways of working from how we, you know, usually define the scope for the CM system and apply that to benefit management as well, to actually go deep and figure out what what are the cause and effect relationships here and how how does it how does it pan out? and get good estimates on both performance improvements and benefits. And again, in practice, what you also speaking about here is the benefit realization plan and map that is creating, right? Yes. Yeah. So unfortunately, there's a job to be done here and most organizations don't do it. But but if you want the firm estimates as the foundation for everything else, then unfortunately, there's a job to be done and we need to do it. I think we have time for just one more question, and that's from that from my here. So collaboration or collaborating with the many suppliers, which comes, of course, in different sizes and cultures and resources. How do you in transformation align and adapt the capabilities available without limiting the ambition for the transformation? In terms of the many different suppliers? Yeah, okay. I think it's always a little bit more complicated if you have a lot of suppliers. But but but but what I strongly suggest is that you invite them in to understand what benefits are you actually chasing to make sure that they also have a common understanding of sort of the end goal to make sure that they know what is it that they are delivering into. And that's sort of the first step to have a good conversation about what is it actually that you need from them in order to be successful. And I think most vendors like us as well, you know, we know that we need to make sure that whomever whomever we are working with, whomever we are working with, we need to make sure that they are success, because that's also the ticket to to to the to the next assignment. And vendors are the same. So so so so giving them the opportunity to actually understand what they are plugging into will also, in most cases, make them understand, you know, how how can we how can we deliver something that's great for you. So so everybody will be happy in the end. And I guess I would also argue that the that the that the sort of point about like staffing for capabilities rather than availability also goes for the for the vendors that are the windows. But I think that I mean, we can deep dive a lot of this into this, but but I think so. The key message is we need to invite them into understand what are they plugging into what benefits are we hoping to to realize to give them a chance to give you proper advice and hopefully have the right conversation about what configuration is it actually that you need for the CRM system. Thank you, Rasmus. We have just one minute left. And I just want to round off here. So thank you very much for all of the all of the engagement in the chat. We have a lot of question in here and we'll try to get back to the ones that we didn't manage to do there. I just want to say thank you for today and thank you for Rasmus joining. And then we hope that we have Alex back next time. But yeah, of course, you never know. And then of course, I hope that you will join for the next sessions as well. And as you will see on the screen here, the next deep dive session is on the drive progress dimension and is on the December 3rd. So I hope to see you there. Thank you very much.