My dream is that we could get through the conversations, get to more speed in actually getting things done. And at the same level, get richer and more inspirational conversations for all the participants. My name is Catriona, and I'm Sti. And we are curious about how changing conversations can help help us in the future. change organizations. Yeah, and together with our community of transformation nerds, we're exploring how to leverage conversations to make our workplaces more fit for humans, but also more fit for the future. We'll use our podcast series to do just that, while being in conversation with business and thought leaders who have interesting perspectives on the topic. So without further ado, let's start the conversation. Today, we've got Maas Nipper with us. He is the CEO of Örsteel, which, by the way, is the most sustainable green energy company in the world. It is. Pretty impressive. Before that, he was the CEO of Grumfoss, which is a Danish pump manufacturer, and he was in various positions in the Lego group. In addition to that, he holds various positions as a board member for different companies. But that's not the main reason he's here today. So, Sti, tell us why we've invited Maas here. Well, actually, when we got the idea for this podcast series on conversations, I was thinking about Maas all the way through. And the reason for that is that he's always inspiring in conversation. He always leaves me with more energy than when I arrived. Whether it's a private conversation or professional conversation. That's just the way he is. But not only that, he also has a consciousness for, or he's reflective upon what's in place to make the conversation feel like that. And I think that's super inspiring. It's going to be cool. I'm looking forward to hearing about that. Welcome, Maas. Thank you. We're so grateful to have you here today. Pleasure. So, at Implement, we are on a journey, and we want to dig deeper into conversations and how conversations hold potential to change us and our organizations. We'd love to explore one particular sort of perspective when it comes to conversations with you and hopefully learn a little bit about the mindset and intention that you bring into conversations. But before we get into that, could you tell us about a specific conversation where change happened for you somehow? Yes, I absolutely can. I'd like to reference an example that's many years back. And it was something very early in my professional career where I had been privileged after less than a year in my, sort of after graduating, to be named department head. And I thought this was the coolest thing on earth. I never admitted it to anybody, but it felt incredibly good to be able to and be allowed to do something like that. And then a couple of years later, I was asked, wouldn't you like to be a project manager for something really new and exciting? And I mean, I was, I obviously thought at the time saying, this is the closest I'll get to getting fired. I have obviously not lived up to my, up to the expectations. So, so this is probably the closest I'll get to my, up to the next one. So, this is probably the end of my time here. But, but through a relatively simple conversation, it was not sort of being told, but it was a relatively simple conversation. I completely changed that perspective 180 degrees. And this is probably one of the most exciting things that could ever happen. And it had, it so happened that it was a project manager job for saying, what do we do about this thing called the internet and direct selling to consumers that's emerging? And obviously that was, that was super exciting, even though my, my ego took a few beatings from sort of not, no longer being a department head. But there was maybe a 15 minute conversation that completely changed my perspective on a matter. Who was that conversation with and what, what did you talk about? It was with my, it was with my, my boss at the time who was the, who was the head of marketing in, in Europe at Lego. And, and, and what, I actually remember less what we talked about. And I remember more about Leo's, his, that's his name, his attitude. He seemed genuinely excited about this new thing. And it was contagious. And, and it made me ask questions. So, but why do you think this is so? Why do you think this is so exciting? He didn't have all the answers because then they wouldn't need a project. But, but, but, but, but the very nature of the conversation where, where his excitement poked curiosity in me, ask questions, and then we essentially explore together. I wonder what this could actually have a potential of what this could end with. That, that, that, that changed my perspective. And this is, I mean, considering the, my, my hair color, this is, this is, this is a better part of, of 30 years ago. So I can't remember the details, but I still remember the essence of the conversation. So on the back of that, what characterizes a great conversation? Yeah, I think a great conversation is characterized by, by both or all parties involved leaving richer. Because I think a great conversation. Because I think it's too simple to say a great conversation is something where we come to a great decision. Sometimes that's a great outcome. In other cases, it is saying we, we, we nuanced a topic more. And then yet another one, it's really only the intangible things that we feel closer. And maybe our ability to problem solve together in the future will be stronger. Even though this particular conversation was not. fantastically specific. So I think if, if we all leave richer in the broadest sense of the world, I think a conversation is, is very, very valuable. And sometimes if you want to understand something, you should look at, at what's the opposite of what you want out of it. And what I think a conversation should not be is transactional. So we exchange views. That, that is not the good conversation. I, I almost hear you saying that in the best of worlds, you're creating something together. And you also, the example you just gave was actually the two of you creating something together in the conversation. I think many great conversations, you are creating something together. I think, I don't necessarily think we're always creating something together. We could also be sort of intangibly strengthening something together. So I think if, if you are very creative mind, I think your intent and your natural instinct will be to, to, to create something together. But I actually think there's a richer set of outcomes from conversation than just that. So if conversations and great conversations are about us coming out richer on the other side of it, to what degree do you think the conversations that we're often having in our organizations live up to that potential? It's almost a rhetorical question because, because in many cases, that's obviously not the case. And I think, I think the last 18 months with COVID have certainly heard that further because I think there is something between human beings, which is, which is intangible, which stimulates more, call it creative, more productive, more emotionally appealing conversations. And I think, and I think I can at least sense if, if the sample of one is valuable, I can say that my conversations, if I talk to a screen are significantly more transactional. And, and that sometimes that's okay, but it's not a great conversation. What would be your dream on behalf of your organization? And what would it do if you could orchestra the conversations that you aspire to have? My dream is that throughout the organizations, not just the meetings where I or my closest colleagues participate, but my dream is that we could get through the conversations, get to more, to more speed in actually getting things done. And at the same level, get richer and more inspirational conversations for all the participants. To which extent do you think, or do you experience that meetings or conversations, if you may, is kind of a blind spot within leadership? It's almost like you don't talk about those things. They just happen and you, you run them in your own fashion and you expect it to do good. Yes, I think they are not very explicit in leadership. And, and yet it is almost all leadership is about because on, I mean, any, any non written conversation or communication is, is, is, is essentially meetings or, or, or communications interactions. And, and, and, and that is why I think this is, this is something that is, it's, it's, it's there in leadership theory and approach, but it's not addressed super explicitly. Well, you mentioned something, Steve, the other day about how many touch points a leader has. What was that? I, I, I read somewhere that you have, as a leader, you have about 300 touch points a week in different shapes and form where you have an opportunity to do, everything we have a different approach. Everything we talk about everything we talk about or a missed opportunity. I, I, I, I, I even think that's low balling it. I, I actually think you have a lot more. I have a, I can say that I have at least, I have, I have at least a hundred just by going to lunch. And, and that's back to obviously not the conversation as such, but the interaction. And, and I think, I mean, one of the simplest, but also one of the, one of the most inspiring, which is, could actually go hand in hand, business books I ever read is the one called touch points. And it is about leveraging and deliberately using every single touch point to exercise leadership. I've experienced you privately and, and also professionally in a lot of meetings over time. And, and you actually seem to have an, in my view, an awareness as to all, you know, being present in those touch points or taking something into those touch points. So what is your, what is your, what is your rule of thumb? What is your non-negotiable? What is your, what, how do you, how do you show up in these touch points? I have three personal values. I try to apply them consistently, but it's, it's a try with, with a capital T because I'm not successful, but, but I have three sort of principles or call them values, which is, which is always to do my job. And I do my best to leave other people with more energy than I take. Every interaction. I, I withdraw something from the bank account with the other person, because we will do something. That's not great, no matter what, but I will consistently try to say, how can I leave that person or these people with more energy than I take? That is actually probably the most important. of all. And, and sometimes, and sometimes, and sometimes, typically, if I, if I had a glass of wine or two, I'll think about what a, what a world we could have if everybody actually tried that. But that's a different conversation. The second, the second principle or value is to be present. And that is a lot harder than, than it sounds. And it has also become substantially harder in the last years, because the level of distraction, mentally, mentally, technologically, just by information overload has exponentially increased just in a decade. And, and, and again, back to the last 18 months, even more so. Because you are, your ability to keep attention looking into a screen is just emotionally a lot harder than if you are actually with other people, real people. And the last, the final principle is, is balance. I am, I am, I am, I am, I am not a black or white person. And that sometimes come to frustration from my surroundings. But, but I always think that the, the, the greatest solution is, is what's, is between us. And not what each of us come with as a preconceived opinion. So, so give, give more energy than I take. Be present. And strive for balance. Is, is, is, is what I try to do. I could say I'm slightly better at it in my professional life than my private life. But, uh. I think you're doing, I think you're doing okay. I, I have one, I have one, um, one thing. You, you, you mentioned that you have maybe 100 touch points a day. And I thought it was interesting. It was almost as if the impression I got was that even when, just when you're at work, you are in conversation. So, so you're never not in conversation. You're always in some kind of conversation. The way you show up, the way you look at people, the way you greet people, the way you carry yourself. Is that, do, do you sense that? Absolutely. It, it's a very, very deliberate choice. Uh, and I think some of the most important conversations that happen are the smallest conversations. Uh, some of them even nonverbal. Um, and, um, and, and, and, and seeking the opportunity to have a conversation is, uh, is, is, is in my opinion, incredibly valuable. To me also inspiring, but that's, uh, that's a privilege I'm born with. I actually get energy from a conversation. Uh, not everybody has that. And therefore it's harder work to do so. Uh, but, but, but for me, when I, when I enter the sort of the personnel entrance at my workplace, uh, I will always glance to seeing is there somebody at the coffee machine on my way there? If there's nobody, I'll walk to my office and grab a coffee from the one we have in the back of the, of that, that building. If there's somebody there, I'll take my coffee there, seeking the conversation with that person or those persons who are there, even though it typically takes less than a minute. Why do you do that? It's, it's because I like it, but it's also because I, I would, I would imagine that for the person who went for a cup of coffee, but who went back to her workplace with a cup of coffee and a conversation with a group CEO, I could imagine it would be a slightly better place. I have a different ways. I have a few, just short ones, just to get to bounce off you. Do you see a difference between listening to and listening with in a conversation? Yes, I think so. Uh, I haven't thought about that particular question all morning. Uh, but, but, listening with is something you do together. And again, assuming that you are more than two people in a conversation, then I think listening with is a very different thing. Because listening to can be a bilateral interaction. Listening with is getting to a greater shared understanding or level of inspiration. And that will everything else equal, provide a stronger platform where what comes next. So I think listening is the most important. But if you can listen with others, it's a greater outcome, I would claim. It's almost as if there's a depth to how you listen. If you are that curious and you're listening with, you're to some extent maybe allowing something to emerge that you didn't expect. To an even large extent. Well, you're also trying to actively see it from the other person's perspective. And I think you mentioned about that previously about, you know, it's not just what I'm saying and what you're saying, but trying to understand the other side so we can create something, we can inspire each other and create something out of it, the conversation together. And I think this may be taking it too far, but I actually think that many people have a thinking style where they, in more free-flowing conversations, actually think in parallel with what they say. I, for one, can say that I do that quite often. And therefore, actually listening even to yourself and what that brings into the conversation and reflecting upon how did that fit into the overall conversation with the other person or persons in the room actually gets you to a greater level of understanding of the total conversation, not just yourself or the other person. A similar sort of input to that is Adam Grant. He's written a book called Think Again. And I've heard him say that, you know, we're often going into the conversation purely with our own perspective in our mind. And we're not going in there to hear the other side. We're just kind of trying to seek opportunities to tell you what I think. And then if you say something differently, we'll kind of disregard that information. I would probably nuance that and say that that is often the case, but not always. And I can say as somebody who has not only changed my workplace, but the entire industry less than a year ago, even though I have more than 25 years of leadership experience, I can say that my curiosity is just exponentially higher than if I, for example, have been in a company for 20 years. So that leads me to believe that the instinctive curiosity or willingness and eagerness to listen can be trained. And it is not something that is, it's probably the instinctive reaction once you are experienced, but not only about how do I learn about my industry, but similarly saying, I don't know these people as well as the colleagues I used to have. How do I get to know them better? How do I shape a platform for how to create something together in the future? I can only do that in one way, which is to listen. And then I think one of the finest arts of any leader at any level is to be very mindful about where is my greatest personal leadership value at. And in many cases, it's not what you think, because your organization will bite and that definition no more than you. So it is typically not sharing knowledge. So what is it then? And the only way you can find out where is your greatest personal leadership value at, which is what your boss or your board pays you to do is to listen very carefully, not just to any single conversation, but to all the conversations you have, because otherwise you will be guessing. Why is it that in every organization I get, and I speak to everyone is agreeing, we need less meetings, we need less conversations. That's very natural, because if something doesn't bring you the desired output, your inclination is to cut down. I think that's a simple answer. And I think most people would agree to say we need less and better meetings. But it should actually be the other way around and saying we need better meetings. And when we have that, let's evaluate whether we need less. So if somebody is listening to this and they're inspired by what they hear, and if you were to challenge them to do one thing tomorrow or later, It would be to practice being present where you are. And with that comes a whole tsunami of other things. But if you're really present physically, body language, mentally, then in my view, by definition, the conversation will be a lot greater. In a few weeks, we'll have a podcast with David White. And he has a way of framing that where he says, he says, beauty is the harvest of presence. Which I guess is exactly what you're saying that if you're present, you can actually experience the beauty of a moment. If you're not, you won't experience, you won't harvest, really. No, and I think it's actually a little bit of a life hack to be present. And again, I'll be the first to admit that I am far from always successful in that. But it is a little bit of a life hack because not only is it a wonderful gift to other people, it is also something that makes any individual much more able to live in the here and now and not in the past or the future, which I think is proven to give a better quality of life. And it doesn't give you a bad consciousness about I should be there or there instead. So I actually think there are no downsides to being more present. Whereas had I given a perspective saying I would encourage you to have more conversations and more frequent conversations. For very introvert persons, that might not be a very good advice. But being present in the way that fits your personality is in my view is a universally good advice. On the balcony after having had this conversation with us, what will you take into the next conversation you have? I will actually probably be thinking more explicitly about listening together or listening with. Until that question was asked, I had not given that a lot of thought. And that is, I think what I will do is I will practice that. So I think I'll bring out that nugget and say, is this worth a double click or an exploration that could even further my ability to have good conversations? I'll give you a call in a couple of weeks, Mets, to hear how your hack worked. I figured you would. So thank you so much for your presence and your time and your energy this morning. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you.